Starting issue....again

[FI Spyder]

Once every one or two years the car wouldn't start with the relay at the fuse box clicking or nothing at all when the key is turned. I've always got it going for another year by spraying the connector block with electrical contact cleaner. In previous years I've taken the relay apart and it looked brand new in there.

It happened yesterday. I cleaned the block with contact cleaner and this time for the first time there was no change. I had carefully cleaned it in August with a tiny brush meant to clean teeth (like dental floss) figuring I got it good this time. I checked the new battery (2 months old) and it was 12.6 volts. I threw the 2 amp battery charger on it and in a short time it went into maintenance mode so it was OK. I pulled off the front heavy brown wires on the connector block and they were still clean and greased. I previously had a drain problem with graphite spray in the Integra's key lock causing a vampire drain and I don't know if I had done it (sprayed graphite) to the TR7 or not. I sprayed silicone in the key lock and it started right up. Went into town with 4 stops and everything is OK. Did the weak point in the electrical change from the connector block to the key switch? Time will tell.

- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[Hasbeen]

First I am totally non electrical, so may be totally wrong, but I'm starting to think this problem is something to do with the commutator, & where the thing has stopped.

Currently my Oz Ford Capri, [Mazda 323 in heavy drag], will do this clicking bit every now & then. Twisting the key a number of times will give a click each time, then on one twist the starter goes.

It may repeat the performance again that day, or not do it again for months. Looking through the thing I could find nothing to cause a problem. So far it has always started, but time will of course come when it won't. Perhaps then I will find the problem after recovery.

The 8 did something similar years ago. Just a click greeted twisting the key, & did not correct itself.

I was in the middle of nowhere, miles from the nearest civilisation, & no phone reception. I had a memory of my father bashing the starter of a 1930 Dodge tourer with a hammer when it did this.

Fortunately no heat shield on the starter. I found a straight[ish] gum tree branch 4 Ft long, 1 1/2" round, which would fit vertically down through the exhaust extractors to the starter motor, & gave it a hit from above. This did cower the thing into action, & I drove on.

Again I could find no reason, but when it happened again I found a 2'6" length of heavy wall water pipe to do the same job, & stuck it in with the spare tyre. I used this only once, then the problem disappeared as mysteriously as it had appeared. Carrying this implement of torture does appear to have made the 8 decide to behave.

Don't you just love these self repairing cars.

Hasbeen

[FI Spyder]

There could be a number of causes to this problem but on this car I don't think it is the starter. When it first happened five years ago I initially had changed the starter to a gear reduction starter (Nippon Denso) and it didn't change what was happening. Only a shot of contact cleaner in the relay connection block would immediately fix it for a year and it repeated yearly, always in September (coincidence?) until this year when it did it this (late) spring. This time in September the shot in the connection block didn't work but a shot of silicone in the ignition switch did. I'm thinking that any contamination the the primary relay circuit will cause a weak flow of current and thusly not strong enough to completely close the secondary circuit to turn the starter over. I'm pretty sure the relay is not the issue as a) one time when it happened I took the relay apart and it was like new inside (no corrosion/dirt in contacts). It's been resealed. This spring when it did it (the only time not in September) I had a new spare relay in trunk tool box and it made no difference so the problem is external to the relay.

I really would like to take the contacts out of the plastic connection block, clean them with Brasso, solder them to the wires, grease them and reinsert them but there is little room to work on it with it not hanging below the dash much. I'm thinking I need to buy one of those multi connector release tools.


- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[saabfast]

I assume you have checked the simple things:
1. When I got my car the starter relay was not working properly, With the cover off I could pinch the contacts together and it worked. New one cured it.

2. A few years later it started clicking again, it was the small connector on the starter pre-engagement solenoid. Looked OK but when taken off the wire was green and corroded inside the spade connector. Cut back and a new spade cured that one.

3. Last one was most embarrassing as I changed the starter thinking it was duff, then in doing it found that the earth connection on the starter motor bolt was loose.

Just a few simple points that can look more complicated if overlooked.

Alan
Saab 9-5 2.3t Vector Auto Estate
'81 TR7 DHC

[nick]

Both of my cars are doing the same thing. Turn the key and click click. Turn it once more and sometimes they work. Sometimes it takes three or four attempts. Some times I have to go to manual mode. What is manual mode you ask.
I made the assumption it is the relay. So I am now operating with cover off the relay. When it doesn't want to go I reach across to the glove box with a pencil and activate it manually. It goes first time, every time.

[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC

[FI Spyder]

Sounds like the same issue, Nick, although only one time was it intermittent, that was two years ago when it went on the way back from Portland in Kirkland and I had stops in Vancouver, ferry line up, getting off the ferry before I could get at some spray. A combination of pushes and it working got me home. I've had my relay hanging down for a couple of years now. You can't see it unless you look in the footwell and it makes it easy to access to spray the connection block (except for last time it didn't work). Increases my belief that the problem is a bad connection in the primary relay circuit producing too weak a current to completely transfer the high current contacts. Going to have to trace the circuit to see if the are any other points other than the connection block and ignition switch that could contribute.

- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[nick]

My theory is that the relays require more voltage to close as they get older. So even though the system is delivering the correct voltage, the relay requires more. With my cars it's like the relay has to be exercised. Usually two or three attempts with the relay clicking finally gets a start. But if I leave the relay cover off I can always depress the contact with my finger or pencil if necessary.
The local car parts house down here (O'Riely} say they can get me a replacement for $US45. So I've been holding out in hopes of a better find.


[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC

[FI Spyder]

British Parts Northwest has an alternative. I think I bought one for my spare parts bin but haven't tried it yet. Last order I made with them I got candies with it (might have been Xmas).[8D]

http://www.bpnorthwest.com/triumph/tr7-tr8/engine-electrical/relay-26ra-replacement-lucas-brand.html



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[nick]

I've had good experience with them as well. Even so far as returns for parts that did not work out well for me. I'll check them for the relay. The treats they include do put a smile on my face.

[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC

[nick]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

British Parts Northwest has an alternative. I think I bought one for my spare parts bin but haven't tried it yet. Last order I made with them I got candies with it (might have been Xmas).[8D]

http://www.bpnorthwest.com/triumph/tr7-tr8/engine-electrical/relay-26ra-replacement-lucas-brand.html



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you have a chance this weekend, could you try that relay in your car? I've had bad experience with one that looks like BP's. I got from VB who sold it as a start relay. But after the egine started and I released the key it quit. Fortunately I was able to use it in the AC system where it functions correctly.

[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC

[kstrutt1]

I had similar problems, eventually I found a couple of things, the engine loom harness multi plug behind the centre console was dodgy and I extended all the brown wires to the battery doing away with the connection to the battery cable.

Kevin

[nick]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kstrutt1</i>

I had similar problems, eventually I found a couple of things, the engine loom harness multi plug behind the centre console was dodgy and I extended all the brown wires to the battery doing away with the connection to the battery cable.

Kevin
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Behind the center console? Is that under the radio?

[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC

[kstrutt1]

Yes the engine loom comes up through a grommet in the top of the trans tunnel and then plugs into the main wiring harness on the passenger side (RHD car, so may differ on LHD)