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TR7 Head Gasket? Water pump?

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deano1976
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TR7 Head Gasket? Water pump?

Postby deano1976 » 17 May 2008 09:37

Hi all! This is my first post here as I just picked up my TR7 convertible yesterday! And, you guessed it! Am confused already!!!!

I know the head gasket needs changing as there is that lovely white gunk on the inside of the oil cap. What I am confused about though - and hoping someonecan point me in the right direction! - Just behind the water pump, just under the inlet manifold at the front of the engine on the block, there is an 'squasher circle' type hole that when I start her and fill her with water in the rad, pee's out water? Is this a failed water pump or something more serious?

Any help would be much appreciated as I am due to be going down to Wales on friday and would dearley love to be going down TR7 style!

TR Tony
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Postby TR Tony » 17 May 2008 10:12

Hi & welcome to the forum. And yes that leak sounds like failed water pump seal, Deano.

If you think the head gasket has gone, & your water pump is leaking, then I wouldn't drive the car as they are prone to head damage if overheated. Still at least you can fix both problems at once when you have it apart.

You can get water pump repair kits, but you may need a tool to get the pump out of the block. Heads can be difficult to get off as they get stuck on the studs. If you are going to tackle the jobs yourself then talk to one of the TR7 specialists like Robsport or S&S Preparations, who can supply all the bits.

Tony
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deano1976
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Postby deano1976 » 17 May 2008 10:30

Thanks for that prompt reply tr tony! I shall crack on with it on monday! Do you think it best to overhaul the existing water pump or just buy a new one? I noticed James Paddock has them for sale at £30 plus VAT? does that sound about right?

As to the head gasket, the car has been standing a little while, 12 months and I wonder if it is just condensation in the engine? I guess a compression check is the only way to tell?
cheers muchly

Deano.

jclay (RIP 2018)
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Postby jclay (RIP 2018) » 17 May 2008 10:46

deano1976,

The water pump is really straight forward process, if you have a slide hammer and don't worry about the backwards turning bolt in the middle.

You will need to finesse the pump cover off and then use the slide hammer to pull the pump out of the motor. Once removed, check in the hole to see if the brass cup came out with the pump. If not, fit hooks to the slide hammer, catch them in the slots in the cup and remove the cup also.

Clean everything up being careful to remove all the gasket material and not to drop any into the block. Fit the new pump, while slowly turning the pump to seat the splines in the gear in the jack shaft. Once seated properly, install the cover without the gaskets and hand tighten the bolts.

Use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the block and the cover. The instructions with the pump should tell you what clearance you need for your pump. Calculate that clearance and use the proper combination of gaskets to fit. (There is usually 3 gaskets of different thicknesses included with the pump.) Remove the cover and install the gaskets. Replace the cover and you are in business.

Here are a couple of tips for when you install the intake manifold. Get two bolts the same size as the head bolts but about 1/2" longer, cut off the heads and cut slots across the shaft so you can use a slotted screwdriver to turn the bolts. Install these studs into the bottom inside holes for the intake manifold on the head. Now you can place the intake gasket onto these studs and then slide the manifold into place. Have a friend start the two top bolts into the manifold while you hold the intake in place. Now you can fit the outside two bolts, then use a screwdriver to remove the studs and finish the installation.

Second tip, when you get ready to set the manifold in place, use three TINY drops of super glue to hold the water passage o-ring in place on the bottom of the manifold face. This will keep it in place and stop it from getting pinched in the installation process.

Stud in place. (Use the bottom two inside holes not the top ones! VOE!) P.S., Remove leaves before installing manifold!

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Have fun, drive fast & safe, be kewl,

jclay
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TR Tony
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Postby TR Tony » 17 May 2008 10:57

Hi Deano,

TR7s had two types of water pump, called 6 vane & 12 vane. Your convertible will have the later 12 vane pump. £30 sounds cheap for a new pump, that is more likely an overhaul kit. Brand new pumps are hard to find & would sell for more than £30. However most of the specialists offer full recon pumps which might be your best bet. Ask around for prices, Paddocks are very good as well as those already mentioned.

Don't forget to ask about a pump extraction tool, the pump sits in a brass cage in the block & often gets stuck! Also, bear in mind the retaining bolt is a left hand thread i.e. it turns the opposite way to normal.

Difficult to tell about your head gasket. Could just be condensation like you say. Compression test would be useful. Would be worth doing an oil & filter change, just use good quality 20/50.

If you do the water pump repair then you could try driving the car and getting up to operating temperature then watch the temperature gauge closely - it should read between 1/3 & 1/2 on the scale. If it goes significantly over half way then that would suggest failed head gasket.

Just be careful cos if the head gasket has gone & you overheat the engine then you can warp the head.

Tony
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<font size="1">1981 2L FHC Cavalry Blue - very original & not rusty!
1980 3.5L V8 DHC Regency Red - on the road again.</font id="size1">

Beans
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Postby Beans » 18 May 2008 14:27

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by deano1976</i>

...there is an 'squasher circle' type hole that ... pee's out water...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by deano1976</i>

... there is an 'squasher circle' type hole that when I start her and fill her with water in the rad, pee's out water? Is this a failed water pump or something more serious?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If this is the hole you are reffering to, then yes you have a keaking water pump ...

Image

Some more info can be found on my weblog ...

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
1981 TR7 DHC (not very well known yet, but back on the road)
Also a 1980 TR7 DHC, 1980 TR7 DHC FI, 1981 TR7 FHC
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</i></font id="blue"></center>

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Postby Rblackadar » 23 May 2008 12:07

Whoa! Hold on! Before you start removing the head for possibly no reason, I must ask you a couple questions. Has the car been sitting awhile? If it has was it dormant in the winter? When was the last time it was run before you noticed the foam? You can get that frothy stuff simply by letting the car sit over the winter months. Condensation forms with the fluctuating temps. inside the block. If their is coolant coming from the slot, then replace or rebuild the pump, that's a given. After that I would let the other guys chime in about holding off on the head removal until you have definite evidence it's the head and not condensation. I let my daily driver sit for 6 months over the winter and the block and all the breather hoses were filled with it.

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Postby bmcecosse » 23 May 2008 22:23

I suggest the white mayonaise has come from water getting into the oil at the failed water pump. Therefore - sort out the water pump and change the engine oil and filter - and then see how it goes before rushing into head gasket change which can be a desperate job!!

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John Clancy
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Postby John Clancy » 27 May 2008 19:02

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">just under the inlet manifold at the front of the engine on the block, there is an 'squasher circle' type hole that when I start her and fill her with water in the rad, pee's out water<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've just seen this post and thought I should get it checked again. If the quote above is correct isn't this simply a case of a missing or misaligned 'o' ring on the inlet manifold? If so there may nothing wrong with the water pump as it's correct for the coolant to leak out of this without a good seal.

Just thought we should check!

<center><b>[url="http://www.triumphtr7.com/documents/sales/codenamebullet.asp"]Buy the story of the Triumph TR7/8 on DVD here[/url]</b></center>

dmachura
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Postby dmachura » 28 May 2008 03:34

Water pump leaking? If it has been sitting awhile, running it a while may seat the seal I would only do this if the leak is slight. As for repairing the pump I wouldn't bother unless you get the back of the impeller machined. For whatever reason the designer of the pump chose to use only half of the pump seal and used the back of the impeller as the other half. The impeller is usually pitted or scored so rebuilding without machining is a waste of time.

White gunk on oil cap? Unless oil in sump is milky it is probably caused by condensation. This can be caused by exhaust blow-by which would indicate worn or broken piston rings, or just sitting too long.

So if it leaking just a bit, fill it up with coolant and take her for a spin.

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Postby bmcecosse » 28 May 2008 17:51

As above - there are two possible water leak sorces - the tube/seal between inlet manifold and haed, and the water pump. Determine which it is before going further. I still say change the oil/filter before running the engine!

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 28 May 2008 21:15

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dmachura</i>

...The impeller is usually pitted or scored so rebuilding without machining is a waste of time...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Something like this [;)]

Before ...

Image

And after machining ...

Image

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)
1981 TR7 DHC (not very well known yet, but back on the road)
Also a 1980 TR7 DHC, 1980 TR7 DHC FI, 1981 TR7 FHC
http://tr7beans.blogspot.com/</i></font id="blue"></center>

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