TR7 verses modern car.

[silverseven]

as winter approaches .....I'm going to miss my wedge, when it comes time for the "modern" Focus to re-emerge from storage.....

O.T. , but couldn't help but notice more than a few of us have Foci as second vehicles .......

Ron.

[tipo158]

My daily driver is a '04 VW R32 and my other occasional use car is a '97 Lotus Elise.

And, even though I have been through five TR7s (including four since 2000), I haven't driven a TR7 since 1986.

The TR7 that I sold in '86 was replaced with a Pontiac Fiero. It don't recall it handling as well as the TR7, but I couldn't take my TR7 to my job in California (wouldn't pass emissions testing) and I couldn't get financing for a used car (like another TR7). I could get financing for a new car (it was my first job out of college) and the torque from the Fiero's V6 was dangerously fun. The Fiero wasn't any more reliable than the TR7, but at least it had a warranty.

I doubt that a TR7 could anything on the street as well as either of my current cars. The TR7 definitely has nothing on my Elise. The TR7 is obviously much lighter than the R32 with better steering feel. However, the R32 makes up for its weight with good computer control of the driveline (it helps that I have the uprated controller for the AWD system).

The advantage that my TR7 will have when it is done is that it will be a prepared, seam-welded, caged rally car.

alan

[Marko]

the development of vehicle dynamics stopped around invention of the horse carriage. Differentials, Ackermann steering principle , roll center position, roll stiffness.... where all known waaaay before the tr7 was made, so we are on the level playing field with modern cars.

Not to mention that most of our cars had minor or major surgery in various departments, tr7 wasn't mass produced with the sprint engine, brake upgrades, suspension upgrades.

Not to mention that you have 1 tone in the straight , but also in the corner and braking.

While modern cars have 1.5 tones in the straight , but also in the corner and braking.

physics is physics and i dont belive that it has changes much in the last....... ever ?!?

[Marsu]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marko</i>

... physics is physics and i dont belive that it has changes much in the last....... ever ?!?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I might be wrong, but I believe coil spring production tolerances have much improved over the 30 years since our wedges were first produced. Conversations with competitors from the period suggests that progessive rated were springs not trusted and unequal sag "setting" was not uncommon.

Further, the addition of "active suspension" to higher end spec cars generally makes it easier for "norm" drivers to push into the upper limits of a chassis' handling characteristics. (At least, that is my experience in driving the E90 330 and some similar vehicles.)

There's no doubt that a modified wedge can keep up with any vehicle that is not in the super-car class, including 4wd Rexs and Evos.

IMHO, it does come down to the skill of the driver to utilise its capabilities.

[Rich in Vancouver]

The biggest improvement modern cars have over the TR7 is computerised engine management systems that control the fuel injection and ignition.
The mixture and spark are adjusted to suit the conditions every millisecond or so and they do a bloody fantastic job.
That is until something goes wrong which is when the owner calls a tow truck and catches a ride to the dealer, Visa card in hand.[B)]

1975 TR7 ACL764U

[Hasbeen]

Alan, [tipo158] you said the magic word, & then dismissed it.

Feel! That what it's all about.

You know the old one about driving. If you can't do it wright about it, & if you can't write, teach.

Well I am continually amazed by some twit writing for a magazine, telling us about the great steering feed back in some front drive thing, with overpowered steering. You go try it only to find something that is totally dead, but not dead enough to stop the thing trying to tear the wheel out of your hands, if you power it up in a corner.

Those journalists should be teaching, they obviously know nothing about driving.

Too many people think the big power slide, as practiced on Top Gear is great driving. Well it's great fun, if you're not paying for the rubber & drive line, but quick it sure aint. You only have to notice that half their celebrities, in their reasonably priced car are quicker than them, to know that.

Don't get the wrong idea. I love Top Gear, but that's because it is a fun show, with a motoring base, not for it's motoring information.

I first discovered feel when I started racing open wheelers, it had never been there in my old MGs, or new Morgan.

I discovered the Lotus & then the Brabhams would tell me, by the feel in the steering, when the thing was about to understeer. A little more experience & I found it would tell me a slightly different story, just before the tail started to let go. By using these early warnings you could correct a slide before it started, it only required a half inch movement in the wheel or accelerator.

You could tell those who tried to get into formula racing cars, who did not have the feel. They would trundle around 4 or 5 seconds off the pase, spinning off from time to time, for a while, before going back to more ham fisted racing. They could not make the pace, without getting that early warning, the quick blokes got.

I had spent over 25 years trundling around in utes, & uninteresting sedans, before I decided to buy myself another sports car. I had tried quite a few, before I tried a 7. It was a good one, with fully rebuilt suspension, & it amazed me, it was so good. I had never before driven a road car that had the feel.

It was so good, I bought the thing on the spot, & drove it home, about 120Km. I went back the next day to get my ute.

My present 7 is even better, & the only other road cars I have driven that has the feel was the early Honda Prelude, & the 203, or was it 302 Purgeot.

Alan, I would not be surprised if a Lotus had the feel, Chapman was definately capable of putting it there, but I don't believe the power steering systen that does not kill it has been built yet.

Sure you have cars with the same, or greater cornering power, some of them handle quite well too, but like my 306 Pergeot, it goes around corners at speeds close to that the 7 does, but I have no idea if I ah half a Km or half a dozen Km, off the limit.

It doesn' feel as nice either.

Hasbeen

[HowardB]

The very best steering I recall having driven was in my Lancia Beta HPE. It was front wheel drive, power assisted,and you drove it with your finger tips, but I could feel every single change in the road surface which gave total confidence in driving it fast. Its sad that none of the FWD cars I have driven since come anywhere near the Lancia let alone my 7.

[Hasbeen]

Howard, I'd like to drive one of them.

I like being proved wrong, it's much more interesting.

Hasbeen

[Bobbieslandy]

A standard TR7 with its suspension, steering and brakes in standard form after about 30 years is not going to be the best handling car, assuming it's like that that is. Once the steering, suspension and brakes (i am officially the only one who thinks the 7s brakes are adequate for road use) have been replaced for new, or upgraded you end up with a terrific handling car. You find yourself catching up with more exotic machinary along the twisties, getting your car lined up with the next corner way before them and having to brake because of the sheer "lardyness" of the car in front trying to sort its life out. You actually can see the tyres struggling with the weight of cars nowadays. Sure, once the road straightens up and we hit 60 -70 plus then i'm ususally left for dead. Any monkey can put his foot down in a straight line. No offence to the drag boys.


Along with all my pipe dreams and wants for my TR7, the V8 was high up on the list and to be honest i have never driven one so cant really comment but i will anyway[:D] At the moment i'll assume i have a little more power than a well sorted 2.0 8v, it's enough to spin the wheels coming off a roundabout, it's enough to bring the back round using the throttle (at quite high revs admittedly) and personally i have just the amount of power to compliment the chassis. As we all know, once you change something, something else becomes the weakest link and i don't have the funds to chase my tail getting the car balanced again if a V8 was fitted. So far, in my opinion the car is balanced and is superb fun. I don't know what the steering ratio is but it's just about spot on, maybe a little under-geared but no complaints. Yes i have a modern BMW with its M-sport suspension and it's ok, much better than standard but like Hasbeen says, you can smoke the tyres and drive it like a loon but at nearly £1000 for a set of tyres i wouldn't want to. The steering on that is just heavy, i guess the motoring press would call it "feel". A car needs to be stripped of all its driver aids for it to communicate, no amount of computer wizardry can inform the driver of the road surface or what the car is doing quick enough. they just dampen the whole experience. Oh, IMHO[:D]

Rob.

[TR 8squadron2]

Gents, interesting thread. I don’t want to dampen this discussion or ostracise myself but you’re not comparing apples with apples.

You’re comparing modified with standard. Although a modern car weighs 200 – 300 kg more it is blessed with better equipment such as bigger brakes, suspension, tyres, electronics etc.

You are in general talking about standard cars like z4’s, TT, ST’s etc which are made for bankers, posers and hairdressers not for enthusiasts

My race car weighs in at 885kg with 350hp and has pucker race suspension and I can only just run a second or so faster per lap than my mate in his EVO 10 FQ (360) on the track

On the road my car would be un-drivable and almost anything would trance me.

The TR7 is a well balanced “old schoolâ€￾ car but when the going gets tough a modern equivalent ( Nissan 350 or 370 ) would run rings around us

Having said that anyone that can drive will hold their own against any car that is poorly driven, but that’s the driver not car.

[Bobbieslandy]

TR8squadron2, you're not dampening this at all, it's a totally fair comment! Yes, i was comparing old skool modified with standard modern machinery although mine's not massively modified. When i said TR7 verses modern car i did mean all TR7's be it the standard 2.0l or a modified one with a honking great 4.6L V8 up front. It's just an opportunity to talk about those little races you end up having when on a leasurely sunday drive. Well some of us do anyway[:)]

[Hasbeen]

TR 8squadren2, you had best take that race car of yours to a good tuner.

I would have had no trouble driving my 500Kg 325 BHP Brabham down the shops to pick up the milk, & that was with 60s technology. Where are all those improvements you are talking about.

I don't know why you think modern tyres are only for modern cars, they do go on our old stuff you know, when we fit suitable wheels. In fact they are both necessary to get most of the modern lumps around any corner, & the problem with such cars. The reason so many of these things end up wrapped around their driver, & a tree simultaneously, is a mixture of too much grip & no feel, so the loss of control is as unexpected as it is instantaneous.

As a member of our volunteer bush fire brigade, I am sometimes called out to help pull some middle aged bloke, out of these modern things. Most of these blokes could not afford a quick car when they still had the reflexes to learn to drive them. Now they can afford them, with their high cornering power & all the fancy electronics, to try to help. They end up around a tree before they know they are even near the limit. I wish they would buy MG TCs. They could probably keep up with the old MGs handling.

Of course we do spend as much time pulling young blokes out of their old Ford V8s. At least those things loose traction at such slow speeds, the damage to the kids is often less.

I did try one of your 350s. Not only was it 500Kg, [not 2 or 300Kg] heavier, you could not turn those bl**dy electronics off. they only turned down, not right off. I found it as much a clumsy great lump, to drive as it was to look at. It was only a touring, & they offered a run in a "Track" at a special test day. When I asked if the electronics were the same in the Track the bloke assured me they were just as good, so I didn't bother going 75Km to drive one. Anything with that much understeer, which you have trouble provoking into over steer is not much fun. As a mate says, "may god protect me from cars with letters after their name".

I did find the Honda S2000 much more to my liking. Much lighter, & more nimble than other moderns, but still not enough feel, particularly for an old bloke. I would feel so silly saying "gooday" to the fire brigade mob, when they came to cut me out of the thing.

Hasbeen

[TR 8squadron2]

Always good to get a bit of banter going?

Not sure what you mean by take my car to a good tuner, the power is not the problem it’s the car sits so low and the gripper diff is so aggressive, with massive camber and caster settings at slow speed you need arms like Popeye, with suspension this hard your back and teeth would be damaged on a short run.

Not sure how you would drive a WTTC car down to the shops for a jar of coffee, ok it’s not WTTC but a proper full on tin top racer. The suspension and amount of steel cage inside would not make it a suitable daily ride.

It finished second in class at Spa and Silverstone this year and on the podium after starting in 32nd at my local track so it can’t be that bad? Only had three races this year?

The tyres are a bit of red herring, not sure where you can buy Pirelli P 0’s or Bridgestone F1’s for 13â€￾ wheels other than Yokohama 048’s that would rip to shreds in 1,000 miles of shellgrip surface used in the UK. Real tyres start at around 16â€￾ for road cars, with them you could fit bigger brakes. But hay that’s £2,500 for middle of the road stuff.

See my point, you would need to spend some serious cash for it to keep up with a modern equivalent.

Tr8 1204 kg 350z 1516 kg not sure where the extra 500kg comes from?

[tipo158]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Hasbeen</i>

Alan, [tipo158] you said the magic word, & then dismissed it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The problem is that I haven't driven a TR7 is over 20 years. I am a much better (and different) driver now than I was then, so I don't think that I can judge the feel in terms other than relative to what I drove at the time.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Feel! That what it's all about.

...

Alan, I would not be surprised if a Lotus had the feel, Chapman was definately capable of putting it there, but I don't believe the power steering systen that does not kill it has been built yet.
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My Elise is an early one (an ex-German market car, one of the earliest LHD cars made), so it is only a bit over 700kg, 200kg lighter than the US market cars. When I first drove it, everything came to me very naturally. My intuitive response to what the car was doing was the correct response and the car would just do as I wanted it to.

Except for turn 7 at Pacific Raceways. At turn 7, it feels like the backend wants to step out.

I sold a S2 Esprit to make room for the Elise. I had it for 10 years. It had the most natural feel to me of anything that I have ever driven. Absolutely regret selling that car, more than any car that I have ever had. I am also afraid to drive one now out of fear that it won't be as good as I remember.

The R32 is interesting. Some of my friends who have driven it say that the power steering is overboosted and point to their Evos as having the best feel. When I drive the Evo, the feel is OK, but, to me, the car feels too long, like you are dragging the back end of the car around. To me, the R32 steering felt more "fun" (not to be confused with having feel), more fun than the similar 3.2L Audi TT.

I sold my first R32, mostly because it was too nice for the gravel road that I live on, but also because you have to get it moving so fast to be where it feels like you are driving it. Then I discovered loose surface (gravel and snow) driving. With my driving style, the power steering mixed with the loose surfaces seems to result in steering feel.

I think that modern, sticky tires make cars faster but take away from the feel. I had a Europa that the previous owner installed 15" wheels with wide, 45 profile, sticky tires on. The car was like on rails. Don't know how it got heat into the tires, but they worked and had amazing grip. I later drove someone's stock Europa (with 13", higher profile, narrow tires with the less performance-oriented compound rubber) and it was a completely different car. Not as fast, but better feel.

I think that I have blabbed on enough for now.

alan

[Beans]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Hasbeen</i>

... I'd like to drive one of them ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am afraid you won't get a chance to drive one,
as the last one completely rusted away more than 10 years ago [:p]

<center>
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>