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16V rally car.

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Bobbieslandy
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16V rally car.

Postby Bobbieslandy » 25 Jul 2010 19:11

I'm sure i've bought this up before but can't find it anywhere, does anybody have the papers listing the specifications of the early rally cars? if they do, could you pass them on please[:D]

Thanks,

Rob.

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 25 Jul 2010 20:07

Homologation or general technical spec?

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Bobbieslandy
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Postby Bobbieslandy » 25 Jul 2010 20:14

I'm not sure Beans[:I] I'm guessing general tech spec. i'm just after some sort of guidence really, it seems this project is leading towards a replica of the early rally cars and i'd like to get as near to the original spec as possible. I'm even prepared to pull the engine out and rebuild it as per the works cars, to be honest i'm not happy with it anyway and know i can do so much better now i don't have a deadline to reach.

Rob.

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 25 Jul 2010 20:51

If you have aspirations in historic rallying you'll need the
homologation papers and they should be a good starting point.
Contact Raider, he might be able to sort you with the homologation papers.

Hopefullly will start on a more or less same project with my Sprint soon.
Been thinking about that for more than 15 years now ...
But that will be a TR7 built as a rally car using proven and modern techniques,
so without any historic or competition use in mind. Just for the fun of it [:D]

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

Bobbieslandy
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Postby Bobbieslandy » 25 Jul 2010 21:10

No no, i won't be rallying it. Well not officially anyway. This will just be just for fun! What sort of ideas do you have with regards to modern techniques? grafting a GT4 floorpan onto your 7? Mmmmmm 4 wheel drive tr7.........

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Marsu
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Postby Marsu » 25 Jul 2010 23:35

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

... I'm even prepared to pull the engine out and rebuild it as ..., to be honest i'm not happy with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Rob, I'm sorry to hear that.[:(]

You've got a freshly built, balanced engine, with lightened flywheel. Further work on the bottom end seems unecessary at this stage. Rather, a tuning program that enhances induction and fuel systems seems more appropriate.

Following are the tuning steps I would consider in your position.

STAGE 1

1. Get a compression check done across all pots. This data will be a reference point for all future work on the engine.

2. Improve the induction system by fitting ram tubes/velocity stacks inside your air filters and by providing a cold air feed from in front of the radiator (the original air box makes the latter easier to do, but I'm not sure if ram tubes can be used with it - they would need to be a short length and the filter element may still interfere with the flow characteristics). (Sprintparts suggests that horsepower increases by approximately 1% for every 4 degrees C reduction in inlet temperature.)

3. Renew the fuel system by either replacing the existing mechanical fuel pump (it's still original isn't it?) or by removing and blanking it off and fitting an elec fuel pump, gauge and pressure regulator.

4. Put it on the dyno so you have a baseline measure of its performance. It should be producing somewhere between 127 and 140 bhp, hopefully at the upper range. Use someone with experience of SUs so that you can ensure you have needles that provide the optimum air fuel ratio across the rev range.

I'd address 1 - 3 ahead of the dyno as these will affect which SU needles are best.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

No no, i won't be rallying it. Well not officially anyway. This will just be just for fun! What sort of ideas do you have with regards to modern techniques?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It seems Beans, you and I may all have similar ideas in this regard, so based on this, the next stage should be modern throttle body injection with programmable EMU.

I would slowly plan this properly, enjoying the car in Stage 1 tune while accumulating all the necessary parts and then performing the change.

Following is an outline of what I have been considering for my Sprint:

STAGE 2
1. Source a 45 or 48mm DCOE style inlet manifold (they still seem to come up on ebay UK sometimes)

2. Source a good spare head and prep it with:
- matched inlet ports to the DCOE manifold
- polished exhaust ports and combustion chambers
- phosphor bronze valve guides to reduce friction on the valve stem
- bigger inlet valves (space for these is minimal and it's not really necessary in my view)
- 3 angle valve seat job

3. Source and fit fast road (STR091) camshaft and vernier camshaft sprocket; shim to the suggested spec

4. Source DCOE tapered throttle bodies, fuel rails, EFI pump and regulator, airbox and cold air induction piping. (Following sexy pics should keep you salivating) [:)]
Image
Image

5. Source a new EFI fuel tank or good second-hand one and modify it to accept fuel return line and internal swirl pot for fuel pickup

6. Source components to set up engine managment, including
- front crank pulley/damper modified to accept a 36-1 trigger wheel
- Ford EDIS-4 control unit, coil pack and VR crank sensor
- engine management, be it Megasquirt,Microsquirt, VEMS or other.
- necessary brackets and wiring

7. Take car off road and perform the upgrade, remembering to
- dial-in cam to optimum spec
- modify extractors to fit wideband Lambda sensor
- get on it dyno and develop alternative maps for max performance and economical running

I'd hope this investment should yield at least 190 bhp (~ 140 Kw) which is what the BL Rally spec engines reportedly produced.

If this didn't seem enough and my wallet wasn't empty then Stage 3 would be to turbo charge, but I would then want to strengthen the bottom end with ladder.
Image

I'm very interested to hear others thoughts on this.
[:p]

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Postby FI Spyder » 26 Jul 2010 03:10

According to the 1977 TSOA newsletter the 16V factory ralley cars raced in Canada, US and Europe put out 220 hp. How you get there is a story I can't write.[:)]



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Bobbieslandy
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Postby Bobbieslandy » 26 Jul 2010 15:48

I wonder how many revs they got 220bhp at? now that would sound awesome!

I'm not happy with this engine in the way that some of the threads in the block and head are about to give. It has been mentioned before that getting all the threads in the head helicoiled would be a good idea. I'm also not happy with the slight tappet noise which comes and goes, it's by no means serious but in my mind a rebuilt engine should be prefect and not make this noise. Plus it's not a shiny as Shauns engine[:D]

I have a spare issue 21 block, a spare 16v head, pistons, timing gear etc etc so pretty much enough to start a proper rebuild. And to do it properly this time!

Re turbocharging, i now it's a bit contraversial but i really like the idea of the rear mounted turbo and have a spare garrett turbo / actuator and waste gate which could be used.

Marsu, i'm still trying to take in your last post, there's a hell of a lot of info there! I'm well fired up for this project.

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 26 Jul 2010 16:50

More or less the same thoughts on the engine spec side.
Will built a fully balanced and strengthened engine, as I will be aiming at 200+ BHP (famous last words).

But most important will be the handling department;
• fit compression struts to the front;

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• fit coil overs to the rear (at last);

Image

• adapt all trailing arms together with a (still optional) Watts linkage
• lighten and stiffen the body shell.
• flashy paint job (which is in my mind for well over 10 years now, so about time to put it on a car [:D])

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsu</i>

... Source a 45 or 48mm DCOE style inlet manifold (they still seem to come up on ebay UK sometimes) ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Chadil in Belgium can supply new ones (for DCOE48), not cheap though

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

tipo158
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Postby tipo158 » 26 Jul 2010 16:56

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

I wonder how many revs they got 220bhp at? now that would sound awesome!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

7000rpm

I have the 4-cylinder homologation papers and the TR7 book with the chapter written by Bill Price that list specs for the car.

I am building a recreation of the works rally cars and recently spoke with John Buffum, who rallied the cars in the US back in the day. He said that their were reliability issues with the 16V engines in rally trim and was pushing me towards doing a V8 car.

alan

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Postby Beans » 26 Jul 2010 17:12

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bobbieslandy</i>

I wonder how many revs they got 220bhp at?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The TR7 Sprint rally cars developed 220 BHP @ 7000 rpm
(the Broadspeed Dollie BTCC racer developd 235 BHP @ 7750 rpm [8D])

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

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Postby Marsu » 26 Jul 2010 17:20

Hi Alan,

Would you be able to scan and post homologation papers? I'd be very grateful as I have never seen these.

Is the book you're referring to "Triumph TR7: The Untold Story" by David Knowles?

Did Buffum identify what were the reliability issues with the rally spec 16V engines?

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Postby tipo158 » 26 Jul 2010 17:36

[quote]<i>Originally posted by Marsu</i>

Hi Alan,

Would you be able to scan and post homologation papers? I'd be very grateful as I have never seen these.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes. I was planning on doing it after the discussion of the 4-parallel link rear suspension, but haven't found the time yet. I have a bunch of stuff going on right now, otherwise I would do it now. I should have time in a couple of weeks.

[quote]
Is the book you're referring to "Triumph TR7: The Untold Story" by David Knowles?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, it is "The Complete Guide to the Triumph TR7 and TR8" by William Kimberley, published in 1981.

[quote]
Did Buffum identify what were the reliability issues with the rally spec 16V engines?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, but if you are really interested, I can ask. I wasn't going to ask about that stuff myself until I was closer to building the engine.

alan

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Postby Marsu » 26 Jul 2010 17:37

Beans,

What strengthening do you have in mind for the engine?

Apart from providing castor adjustment, what are the advantages of the compression strut?

What's the approach for fitting an anti-roll bar once you have the compression strut in place?

Do your front strut coil-overs provide camber adjustment at top?

Marsu
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Postby Marsu » 26 Jul 2010 17:47

Alan,

When you you have a moment it'd be great if you could post the papers and also ask Buffum about the failures he encountered with the 16V engines.

I have seen pics of bottom-end failure. The block cracked around the mains bolts, dropping the caps. (I can't remember which caps are most prone to this.)

I've been told that this may occur when allowing the engine to rev beyond the factory redline, but that fitting a ladder brace fixes the problem, making the engine safe up to 7500 (some say 8000 rpm).

I do wonder about other weaknesses

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