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Water pump issues

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64grandsport
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Water pump issues

Postby 64grandsport » 07 Jul 2010 00:16

Just got my new motor in and have issues. When I sent the block to the shop, the old water pump was frozen in and had to be pulled. It pulled the bushing part of the way out. I had not ordered a new bushing, so I got a socket about that size and an extention and pecked it in. The water pump went in tight....real tight. But, it turned and I figured that since it was brass and the shaft was steel, and had an oiling cut on it that it would find its own way.
Now, I have the motor running, and it is still running hot, the heater is not getting real hot though????? and I hear a pecking in the water pump, when I put a wood dowel to it, I can tell it is in the water pump. The noise seems to have quietened some, but the motor is still running hot. Are these motors hard to bleed air off of?
thanks all

Workshop Help
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Postby Workshop Help » 07 Jul 2010 00:51

Let's start with the most obvious questions. Is coolant being pumped from the block and out thru the upper radiator hose? When the engine is at it's operating temperature with the thermostat opened, is there a spongy resistance when you squeeze the upper hose? Is there coolant in the lower hose when you squeeze it? What is the temperature rating of your thermostat? The common wisdom is to use one rated at 180 degrees F. Are you using a cooling system lubricant? Now is a good time to do so. I do hope your coolant mix is 50/50 distilled water and antifreeze.

As for the initial fill procedure, on the early cars with the plug in the top of the thermostat housing, one fills it cold here, then runs the engine up to operating temperature. Once it has cooled down again, fill it up to the top and refit the plug. On the later cars without the plug, one can, I say CAN, remove the thermostat housing and fill the system thru the thermostat cavity, then later after running up the temperature, complete the fill thru the overflow tank. Others say just fill up the overflow tank and later check for additional coolant needs. Which ever method you prefer, the key question is; did all the air burp it's way out of the cooling system?

As for the heater core not receiving hot coolant, it gets it from the rear transfer housing on the back of the head. Provided the heater core is not plugged with debris or mounds of sand from old cooling system sealant, perhaps testing the core by disconnecting the hoses and flushing it with fresh water from the garden hose is worth a try. If water does not flush from the outlet spigot, you will have found your next problem. If water does flush, an air pocket may need to be burped.

Please report your progress so others may chime in with their suggestions and nightmare stories.

Mildred Hargis

64grandsport
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Postby 64grandsport » 07 Jul 2010 01:48

Well, I am not using a thermostat until I make sure that the thing is working. I started out with about 75% antifreeze, but that ratio has declined a lot since I first tried to start the motor as I had issues with the o-ring at the intake. It is an early car 77, but the intake seems to be a 76 design, as it was a OCT car, and the head configuration and intake seem to be old style instead of regular 77. I will check on some of your suggestions tomorrow and do thank you for your help
d

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TRiffic
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Postby Workshop Help » 07 Jul 2010 03:01

Mine is also an Oct 1976 produced car. It was sold as part of the $4995 sale event and is a 1976 model. Do you have the manual choke setup? Is your EGR valve bolted onto the mount or is it threaded into the mount? Is your car a four or five speed model. If your answers are the former for each question, the car is a 1976 Federal model. If your answers are the latter, it is a 1977 model car.

Regardless, the initial cooling system filling procedure is the same. Are you sure your rear transfer housing is sparkling clean on the inside? Have you cleaned the temperature sending unit?

Mildred Hargis

64grandsport
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Postby 64grandsport » 07 Jul 2010 07:19

My My Mildred, you sound wise. Actually, my car is a Jan 77 car, but the engine I got to put in it, since mine was junk was out of the Oct 76 car. I had several ways to go, and chose manual chokes and external amplifier distributor to go with the 5 speed already in it. Thanks for your help

Cobber
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Postby Cobber » 07 Jul 2010 10:59

<font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Your problem could be the lack of a thermostat, especially the cold heater. When you omit the thermostat the coolant can flow straight back to the radiator, effectively bypassing the engine and the heater core.</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size2">

80'Triumph TR7, , 73'Land Rover (Ford 351. V8),
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85'Alfa 90, 69'Ford F250.
76' Ford F100

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 07 Jul 2010 16:32

Not only do you need a thermostat you need the right one. Many vendors sell a standard thermostat that will fit but they don't have what I call the Triumph foot" that when open blocks off the bypass and diverts all water to the radiator. I've got a couple of these lying around as when I ordered them I assumed (mistakenly) that being Triumph vendors they would send the right one. With out this foot only part of the water goes through the rad and in effect is equivalent to a blocked rad making overheating a likely event. Here is a picture of correct thermostat, notice the extention foot that blocks off the bypass when open.

Image



TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra
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jeffremj
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Postby jeffremj » 07 Jul 2010 19:59

First of all, I assume you used the gaskets to give the proper clearance between pump and top cover?

Given this, it is still difficult to diagnose but, in my experience, if the water pump is difficult to put in, there maybe problems. Cue nightmare scenario number 1.

When I rebuilt my 16V with a 'spare' S/H block I failed to acknowledge that any wear to the front jackshaft bearing means future problems. If the jackshaft front bearing area is oversize, the timing chain will pull the jackshaft to one side and this will make the water pump difficult to fit. If the water pump is the old one, you may just get water leaks as the pump is at a slight angle. If it is a new one, the teeth on the gears may overheat and break, destroying the engine. It took 1000 miles to die after 3 water pumps - the last being a new one. This cost me 1000 pound sterling.

This is, of course, the worst case scenario.

So, if you fitted the pump before the timing chain, I would imagine the lower bearing is damaged. If fitted after, the jackshaft bearing area maybe worn.

I would pull the pump and find out why it was difficult to put in - it should just wind in if the brass cage is in situ, in the block.

bmcecosse
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Postby bmcecosse » 08 Jul 2010 18:35

You absolutely MUST use a thermostat - and as explained above - it MUST have the Triumph foot! Just use 100% water for now - until you are sure everything is ok. When it's working as it should - worry then about adding antifreeze. Worth checking if the temp gauge is working as it should - measure the temp with a proper thermometer.

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64grandsport
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Postby 64grandsport » 09 Jul 2010 08:44

Well, I got the thing running, all of the leaks stopped, and let it idle in the drive for about an hour. NO leaks, so I took it for a spin and made it 12 miles before the head gasket blew. Called the engine shop that did the machine work and they told me that they cut the head .018... ouch. so... I had another head gasket, I took a reamer to the head bolt holes and put some old indian on it and am going to try it again. I reamed the head bolts about .010.
My thermostat does not look exactly like the one pictured here. It came from Victoria british. It does not have the jiggle thing and not as elaborate on the middle section, but when I do compare it to the one that was in it, it does have a second section on the bottom. You guys are really a lot of help and I thank you guys.
I have not had this much problems building a motor since I built a 1959 Ford truck 225 more than 35 years ago. That thing had 17 teeth between the timing marks, took me 6 months to learn that trick

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 09 Jul 2010 19:00

Yes, Triumph engineering is a little different from classical thoughts on automotive engineering and if you take it to a regular mechanic/engine shop without specific instructions they will screw it up for sure. Thicker gaskets are available for heads that have been skimmed too much, I've heard of 20 over and 40 over. Elongating bolt holes is a more drastic solution but if you had a spare gasket anyways.....

To put it in perspective one brother in law had his Subaru head gaskets replaced cost....$3,500 and another has his Camry head gasket to be done cost $1,000.



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macmattom
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Postby macmattom » 09 Jul 2010 21:54

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

standard thermostat that will fit but they don't have what I call the Triumph foot"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you explain what you mean by the "Triumph foot" is, please. [V][?][V]. Sorry for asking, feel a bit of a [:o)] !

Cheers,

Mac

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saabfast
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Postby saabfast » 09 Jul 2010 23:19

The 'foot' is the plate on the bottom which moves up and down with the action of the thermostat as it expands & contracts with temperature change to close a port in the housing and divert the flow. Most standard thermostats have a fixed bottom plate and the centre part moves to open or close a hole in the plate so are not suitable for the housing arrangement of a TR7 engine.

Alan
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