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Homologation questions?

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John Wood
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Homologation questions?

Postby John Wood » 01 Dec 2014 14:18

When the TR7 was introduced to the Rally scene in 1976 how did they get the 4 valve engine homologated for competition when the production version was a good 12-18 months away? (We all know it never actually became a production model).

Same thing happened when they homologated the V8, how did they get around that one as very few TR8 FHC's were around and it never became a production car until 79 with the TCN cars (not many of them either).

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dursleyman
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Postby dursleyman » 01 Dec 2014 15:11

The Homologation thing was all a bit of a fiddle back in those days. Reading the Bill Price and Graham Robson books it appears that they were able to list things as an option that were never actually produced or claim that they had been produced for export markets etc. Robson says that John Davenport recalls some kind of "100-off" rule applied to alternative engines and that is also how Ford had got to race the 24valve Capris. BL also got the Sprint overdrive gearbox homologated because the LT77 was not available and the heavier duty 5speed axle.
How many TR7's were produced with 4pot front brakes and disc brake back axles, but all the rally cars had versions of them. It also depended a bit on which classes you were competing in.

All the manufacturers were at it back then so this was not so unusual.

Russ

1981 TR7 Sprint DHC
Dursley
UK

http://tr7russ.blogspot.co.uk/

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John Clancy
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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby John Clancy » 01 Dec 2014 17:33

Doesn't Bill explain exactly what went on for the 16 valve engine on disc 2 of Bullet Reloaded? If he doesn't then it's clear in my head so maybe I've just spoken to him about it so often it's stayed with me. But I think you'll find it's in 'The Men Behind The Motors' on that title. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong because I watch these things for the last time when they come back from the lab for one last check and that's it.

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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby Beans » 01 Dec 2014 17:33

The homologation papers indeed make for interesting reading.
They even homologated the DHC's as "optional bodywork" in July 1980.

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Postby TR Tony » 01 Dec 2014 18:08

Not all these options & parts were incorporated in the original homologation, which shows a RHD car JHP 397P from the ACG series stating that the minimum production of 1000 identical models had been achieved by February 1975 (presumably that included the LHD cars). Lots of quite interesting detail about the spec of the standard 2L TR7.

My rather poor quality copy of the TR7 homologation papers shows that many of the rally parts were homologated later on as updates to the original form - the 4 valve head amendment for example is dated 1st February 1978.

Tony
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<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
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Postby Chris Turner » 01 Dec 2014 22:29

There were no UK cars built before February 1975, however there had been well over 1000 LHD ACL cars built.
Also the registration number quoted is from a 1300 Triumph Toledo.

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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby TR Tony » 02 Dec 2014 07:40


There were no UK cars built before February 1975, however there had been well over 1000 LHD ACL cars built.
Also the registration number quoted is from a 1300 Triumph Toledo.



LOL! Just goes to show how loosely the regulations for homologation were applied!

Tony
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<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
1980 TR7V8 DHC Jaguar Regency Red - sadly sold!
1977 TR8 FHC EFI Factory development car Inca Yellow</font id="size1">

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 02 Dec 2014 13:25

Is there a definitive number of Sprints built for homologation? Bill Piggott's book says 60 (I believe, going from memory here), I think Chris said about 20.

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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby Chris Turner » 02 Dec 2014 15:05

I know of 62
ACH 1-ACH25 could be more of these but the last one I know of is ACH25
ACH00501- ACH00536
ACH00700


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dursleyman
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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby dursleyman » 02 Dec 2014 15:50

Doesn't Bill explain exactly what went on for the 16 valve engine on disc 2 of Bullet Reloaded? If he doesn't then it's clear in my head so maybe I've just spoken to him about it so often it's stayed with me. But I think you'll find it's in 'The Men Behind The Motors' on that title. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong because I watch these things for the last time when they come back from the lab for one last check and that's it.


John, they do talk about the 16 valve motor, ways to make it more reliable and methods to strengthen the block etc that Broadspeed and Don Moore used but I didn't hear anything relating to Homologation.

I seem to recall that the manufacturer had to build 1000 cars for it to run in Group One, and I believe Triumph used the 1000 LHD cars sent to USA as their qualification. We all know that those USA cars did not have Sprint engines. It seems no-one actually bothered to verify anything in those days. The TR7 was Homologated on 1st October 1975!


Russ

1981 TR7 Sprint DHC
Dursley
UK

http://tr7russ.blogspot.co.uk/

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John Clancy
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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby John Clancy » 02 Dec 2014 19:26

Well what happened was that Bill and the team knew the 8 valve motor was going to be a little bit underpowered to be truly competitive so Bill just stuck the 16 valve details on the homologation form to see what happened. The FIA stamped an 'approved' on it and they were able to go with the 16 valve engine. It really was as simple as that.

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TR7 Sprint - Homologation questions

Postby dursleyman » 02 Dec 2014 20:46

Well what happened was that Bill and the team knew the 8 valve motor was going to be a little bit underpowered to be truly competitive so Bill just stuck the 16 valve details on the homologation form to see what happened. The FIA stamped an 'approved' on it and they were able to go with the 16 valve engine. It really was as simple as that.


That is Brilliant, so it was lets just try our luck and see what happens! The rest is history.

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Re: Homologation questions?

Postby Graham.Fountain » 13 Dec 2016 11:58

I've been doing a bit of research on this old question, since the FIA published all the old rule sets (appendix J to the International Sporting Code). Anyway, there're enough referencable material that I've been able to write it up on the Wikipedia page for the TR7 in the "motoresport" section - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_TR7#Motorsports.

The only bit that's still not clear from the rules is how Bill got them to approve the hd rear axle before they made enough (1000) 5-speed cars. It's listed in the papers as an export option, but there's nothing I can find in appendix J that covers axles that way for group 3.

Still, the issues about the 16-valve head, close-ratio box, and overdrive under the 100-off rule, and the brakes, etc., under (what I suppose, by analogy, must be called) the "0-off rule" are now clarified. Up until the end of 1977, that is. Then the issue over the head gets really, really interesting. Nearly as interesting as Vauxhall's problem with the Lotus 16-valve head and the scrutineers at Rally Portugal in 1978.
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dursleyman
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Re: Homologation questions?

Postby dursleyman » 23 Dec 2016 14:51

I was given a set of original 1975 Homolgation papers recently and have put them them on MyDrive here:-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz1MK ... mNubHVpcW8

The heavy duty axle is listed as an "Option for certain export territories" and it all makes interesting reading.
Russ

1981 TR7 Sprint DHC & 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC
Dursley
UK

http://tr7russ.blogspot.co.uk/

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sydney.wedgehead
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Re: Homologation questions?

Postby sydney.wedgehead » 24 Dec 2016 02:50

Russ,

Thank you for posting the papers. I didn't have a copy.

Regards,
Owen

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