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Brakes question

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jrich4411
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Brakes question

Postby jrich4411 » 24 May 2014 23:21

Now that I've added a whole lotta go to the car, I need a lot more whoa to match! I have Wilwood calipers & rotors in the front, Ford calipers & rotors in the rear (both courtesy of Woody). I've added almost 500 pounds to the car between the engine & rear counter weights. The stock brakes just can't hold. I'm about to embark on the latest project - a new brake booster & bigger lines front to rear. The lines are a no brainer - just bend new larger diameter lines mimicking the originals. My question is on the booster.
I see that the TR8 had a different brake booster than the TR7. How much more boost does the 8 booster give? Are there other options available? I'd especially like to hear from any of you who autocross your cars - I really feel I need that much stopping power due to the added weight.

Jon

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Postby Stag76 » 24 May 2014 23:52

We use Holden Commodore boosters in Aus. There's a little bit of fabrication necessary, but not much. I don't know of anybody down here that has fitted bigger diameter lines.

I think they are made by PBR (NOT Professional Bull Riders), who make brake parts that are fitted to a lot of GM cars. With Holden being a very small part of GM, it's likely that they came out of the GM parts bin, and are not unique to Holden.

Holden Commodores might have been badged as Pontiacs in US.

http://www.worldpac.com/pdfs/sd-promo-PBR-Brochure.pdf


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Postby Cobber » 25 May 2014 04:39

It would depend on which series and model Commodore is used for the donour, as to if that series and model was rebadged as a Pontiac.

Stag, could you tell us which series and model of Commodore the booster comes from?

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Postby john 215 » 25 May 2014 05:52

Hi,

The most common alternative master cylinder over here is one of a BL Sherpa which was a large van for those who don't know. I run one on my DHC, Robsport always have them on ' The Bay '

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR7-T ... 43c8720c90

I believe with a little work a Rover SD1 will also fit and sure have seen them on our car's. If I come across one a reasonable price may have a play and see.

Cheers John

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Postby Cobber » 25 May 2014 06:32

We here in Oz didn't get Sherpas, nor would our friends in the US or Canada have got them either.
For those of us living in the Sherpa van deficient parts of the world we need alternatives with more local accessibility.

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Postby Stag76 » 25 May 2014 08:06

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Stag, could you tell us which series and model of Commodore the booster comes from<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
VP Series.

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Postby Cobber » 25 May 2014 08:52

OK for the benefit of our friends in the US and Canada there is no direct equivalent Pontiac model for the VP series Commodore.
But that's not to say the same booster wouldn't have been used on some other of GM's US models.
I know one series of Corvettes had their brakes developed here by PBR and a lot of Camaros and Firebirds had Aussie bits in them too.

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Postby Workshop Help » 25 May 2014 11:55

Oh! Kind and gentle souls traipsing about in the varied hinterlands, didn't we hint about on the topic of parts interchangeability not too long ago? Hmmm, yes we did. It had to do with our dearest friend Hasbeen and his foray at Rabaul in the Parts Department and my article on the air cleaner temperature sensor, which can be viewed in the Workshop Manual.

Would it be possible for our Stag76 to quote a GM part # on that Holden VP Commodore brake booster? Perhaps then some enterprising hero on this continent could delve deeply for a match over here. It would also be helpful to provide the dimensions and a photo of the booster.

Mildred Hargis

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Postby jeffremj » 25 May 2014 12:00

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I believe with a little work a Rover SD1 will also fit and sure have seen them on our car's. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I use Rover SD1 servos. They are big and give a useful extra boost. You need to shorten the actuating rod - if you can dismantle it you may be able to use the TR7 rod. Other than the rod, it is a direct fit. I also have the Sherpa servo, and the rod is slightly longer than the TR7 one, but a bulkhead spacer sorts that out. Here are some pictures.

Sherpa and TR7 - 22cm and 20cm diameter (approx.):
Image

My SD1 servo in-situ - 24cm diameter (approx.):
Image

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Postby Ianftr8 » 25 May 2014 14:52

Not wishing to hijack the thread I have put a posting on the TR8 section

Cheers
Ian


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Postby jrich4411 » 25 May 2014 20:44

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jeffremj</i>

[quote]I believe with a little work a Rover SD1 will also fit and sure have seen them on our car's. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I use Rover SD1 servos. They are big and give a useful extra boost. You need to shorten the actuating rod - if you can dismantle it you may be able to use the TR7 rod. Other than the rod, it is a direct fit. I also have the Sherpa servo, and the rod is slightly longer than the TR7 one, but a bulkhead spacer sorts that out. Here are some pictures.

Sherpa and TR7 - 22cm and 20cm diameter (approx.):
Image

My SD1 servo in-situ - 24cm diameter (approx.):
Image
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't see any Rover SD1 boosters on Fleabay at the moment - but I do see a bunch of Range Rover & Rover Freelander boosters available, some at very attractive prices. Can anybody here tell me the difference between them and/or if they can be fairly easily adapted to our cars?

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Postby trsforever » 25 May 2014 22:18

Hi Jon, personally I would leave the steel brake pipes as they are as they are more than capable to cope with the brakes that you have, firstly I would source a bigger bore master cylinder as the tr8 is bigger than the tr7, with the bigger caliper's you have you need to push more fluid, but there is not any significant flow of fluid to need the bigger lines. second would be the bigger booster and then I would replace the rubber brake lines with a S/S braided hose kit these can help give a better harder feel to the pedal, but you need to check with your testing centre if they are allowed as they are a race car part and possibly not compliant.(were illegal in New Zealand until recently)
Good luck.
Regards Scott.

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Postby busheytrader » 27 May 2014 10:55

IMHO you definitely need to update the brake servo (booster) and master cylinder when you update the brakes. Stainless braided hoses also improve things.

The standard braking components just about cope with an unmodified car.

Adam

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Postby Graham.Fountain » 01 Jun 2014 15:38

I know this is something of a personal <i>bête-noire</i>, but with any modifications to the brakes, you really have to consider the effect on the bias of the brake balance: It's important to outline what you're doing to bring the balance back to the front, or limit how much it has moved to the back, and why, just as much as what you're doing to improve the overall effect. Otherwise you give the unititiated who might read this the impression that it's perfectly safe to change the brakes as you like, and the impression that the only possible effect is that you stop sooner (or later). Whereas, the fact is, which way round you're facing when you do stop has some significance for safety. Obviously, this isn't such an issue with a car for track use, but you don't make it clear what the use is either.

As to why you have to do anything: If you bias the balance of the brakes too much to the rear, you risk locking the back brakes first, which should normally be avoided as it make the car unstable and liable to spin. And, the odd thing is that the bias on the brake balance is not given simply by the ratio between the efforts at the front and back. Hence, the effect on bias of improving the effort from the back brakes is not counteracted by an equal improvement at the front. Nor does improving the fronts mean that you can improve the back equally, and keep the bias where it was (should be). In fact (and this apparently comes as a surprise to far too many) improving the brake effort at the front can make the situation worse, i.e. move the brake balance more to the back rather than bringing it towards the front. All this is made more of a problem when you also improve the coefficient of friction between the road and tires, e.g. by using a wider tire and or softer compound.

For those (very few) interested, the physics is that the brake force or effort you can apply to a wheel before it locks depends entirely on the fraction of the cars weight on that wheel and the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road (which is determined by how clean and dry they are and the compound of the rubber). Why all that's so is given by Amontons' and Coulombs' laws of friction.
However, when decelerating under braking, more of the weight of the car is transferred to the front, and there's less weight on the back. And that weight transfer depends on the total brake force from all four wheels, not how much is applied where: The point where the resolved force through the centre of gravity of the car hits the surface of the road moves forward under braking. This resolved force has a vertical component from the weight of the car (<i>M*g</i>) and a horizontal component from the force of braking (<i>M*a</i>). And the weight on each wheel depends on how far it is from this point where the force hits the road.

As an aside, this is why the front dives under braking, and the rear lifts. And why this dive is in proportion to the total brake force, not how much is done at the back or the front (there is a small effect due to the trailing links at the back tending to want to be more nearly horizontal under tension due to the rear effort; but this is at best a secondary effect compared to the effect of the weight transfer under braking acting directly on the springs; and certainly does not change how much the front dives, only a small change to how much the rear rises by - in effect, stiffening the rear springs slightly).

So, anything you do to improve the braking force, whether it's at the front or the back, increases the force needed to lock the front wheels and reduces the force needed to lock the back brakes. Which set do lock first does depend on actual forces and the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road, and is thus more of a problem with softer tires and dryer, cleaner road surface. However, if you improve both equally, you still moved the bias backwards and increased the risks of rears locking first. Similarly, if you improve the fronts alone by enough, you will reduce the force needed to lock the backs to less than they deliver, and thus make the car rear biased. This is one of the reasons why the TriumphTune performance manual (MGL 9800) says, when improving the fronts (I would guess, beyond the TR8 setup), "use the smaller rear wheel cylinders [from the 4 speed car] to balance the braking and standard rear linings for a road car." If you improve the back brakes, then it's fairly obvious you're moving the balance towards the rear; doubly so, since you've reduced the force needed to lock the rear wheels and increased the force available to do that.

It is possible to work all this out, and see how much closer you are to rear biased brakes – I have an excel spreadsheet that does this somewhere. Unfortunately, you need the before and after weight of the car and the (before and after) position of its CofG – fore and aft and height above the road – to get actual numbers. And while I know how to measure these, I don't have the equipment: a set (pref., 2 sets) of 500+ Kg scales (and a jack, which I do have). I understand you can get the actual brake forces from an MOT test station – though that may be limited by the coefficient of friction between the tire and the roller, so there could be complications there. It is relatively easy to calculate the forces for disks from their dimensions and the hydraulic pressure, but it's a bit hard for drums.


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Postby jrich4411 » 01 Jun 2014 23:55

Graham, that is a great write-up of how the system works. My car is going to be used for pleasure, but an autocross run or 2 in the future is not entirely out of the question.
At this point I have added around 450 pounds (about 200 kilos) to the car between the added weight of the engine and the counter balance weight in the trunk. Right now the rear brakes will not lock up. They grab for an instant and then release. I do have a Ford rear end and an adjustable bias from Woody already installed. The rear calipers have been replaced. I already have the braided lines installed in the front, but not in the rear. That will be done as part of this upgrade.
I ended up purchasing a TR8 "uprated" master cylinder & servo from Robsport. Hopefully, with the new booster & replacing the remaining rubber hose I can get enough fluid to the rear brakes to operate them correctly.

'80 DHC
Chevy V8 up front
Ford rear end down back
Lucas wiring all over

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