Bullet re-loaded and the demise of Speke

[FMN2D]

I have now watched Bullet Re-Loaded several times, which has led me to read up on some of the political and economic circumstances of the times. Prior to watching either of the DVD's, the best overall view I had was from TR7 the untold story. It seemed to me that the failure of the US launch and shortcomings of early cars were blamed on the Speke workforce (who even now are referred to as 'gypsies, tramps and thieves' on a US forum). This did not sit well with me; my understanding is that management made a total cock-up of the implementation of MDW, and the early lack of tooling and constant specification changes must have made smooth production impossible. The launch was nothing more than suicide given the botched state of the press cars, and lack of availability of parts to meet warranty obligations, makes you wonder if certain sectors of BL management tried to sabotage the project there and then. I have also been looking at the US safety regs in some detail, and the effect they had on other producers. I have a list of all the US official re-calls, but does anyone know what the faults were in the class-action lawsuit filed against BL, resulting in Nader's complaint to the NHTSA?

Having read House of Commons reports, and Edwardes book,(I also have Derek Robinson' s commie rant in response to the 1979 Recovery Plan) it appears that factory closure and scaling down the business was government policy well before Thatcher came to power, and that Callaghan wanted Triumph binned altogether in 1978. As Canley and Solihull were also under review at the time, they would have probably closed all three factories if they could have got away with it. Makes me wonder if the TR7 was saved to keep these factories going just long enough so they could stagger the closures?

[john 215]

Hi,

BL problems were many in number IMHO, they ranged from the very top to the bottom. They had a range of car's that competed with themselves through its various ' brands ' and they all had there own ' game ' to play also.

The union's had to much power and in many cases there own political agenda. As a child my dad worked as a tool maker at Vauxhall, lost count the number of times he was out on strike, always knew when because like half school I suddenly got free school meals for a week or two !

The government wanted manufactures to build cars all over the country hence Speke and Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port

They were without any doubt a head of the time in many way's. How many other manufacture's were producing a five speed hatch back ( Maxi ) at the start of the 70's ??





Not to mention, Mini, Allegro, SD1, Metro, etc. all ahead of there time IMHO They also made everything from the Mini to trains !


There was huge lack of cash, the company was always on the edge of going to the wall and doubt they ever made a penny on anything they made. Build quality was at the best poor, I have first hand experience of this when carrying out PDI's on new cars that had to be virtually rebuilt.

Not sure you have seen this but interesting viewing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBokyZ0w ... FEDF362717


Cheers John







LIVE LIFE A QUARTER OF A MILE AT A TIME!

1976 Speke FHC Beauty Now with an overdrive conversion

1979 3.5 FHC(STATUS PENDING!!)

1982 2.0 DHC NOW A 4.6, BUILT NOT BROUGHT !!!!

[FMN2D]

Thanks John

I saw that clip some time ago, which at least gives the Speke workers their side of the story. The presenter bemoans the lack of a roof, and as explained on Bullet BL could not afford to create the Targa roof included in the original design. But it took them a year to even put a sun-roof in it, US dealers were having to arrange after-market ones!The car was hoping to rival the 240z, who managed to get a 2.4L 145 bhp engine through the emissions regs. I can't think of another example of a sports car that used an engine less powerful than the saloon car it came out of, It seems to me inconceivable that the car could have been launched in the US to rival other big -selling sorts coupes in that format, and still expect to earn millions in exports. The fact that they did not offer an auto in California says it all-it would hardly have been capable of moving its own weight! A great pity some of the money wasted on the Allegro wasn't spent on getting this car ready for the US launch.

[RUDDY]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by john 215</i>

Hi,

They were without any doubt a head of the time in many way's. How many other manufacture's were producing a five speed hatch back ( Maxi ) at the start of the 70's ??

Cheers John

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unfortunately they were still producing the same, now out dated product in the 80's, when the Maxi was released it was up against the Mk1 Escort for sales, it was still competing for sales when the MK3 Escort was in the showrooms.

You look at some of the models still in the range in the 80's and they were from a bygone era, Maxi became Maxi 2, Allegro became Allegro 2 and 3, Mini had special editions every other year, Marina became Ital. Princess became Ambassador, all just tweaks on ageing designs.

I still love them though [:I]

Regret turning down a mint first edition Metro 1.3S a few years ago.....

Cheers, Paul

[jeffremj]

The final demise of the TR7 was due to the pound rising against the dollar and other currencies. The cause of this was simple - North Sea oil and, although it was well known that this would happen, nothing was done to mitigate against it. Indeed, the general public saw nothing of the money as, because of certain politicians and their city mates, the £100 billion in oil taxes of the 1980s was exactly balanced by the £100 billion spent on unemployment benefit, over the same period, so that they could keep people happy whilst they dismantled the UK's entire design and manufacturing infrastructure. This is why the UK can no longer design/build anything, not wind farms, power stations (Nuclear or otherwise), railways, ships, etc., etc.

[xx(]

[Workshop Help]

Whatever this little yellow car is, I like it. I like it for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it is from an era where my mechanical mindset can cope. I like the mechanical hood strut instead of gas struts. I like the amount of window glass and a regular size door opening. I like the round glass headlights instead of the modern plastic lens covers that go yellow and opaque. I like the pastel yellow paint without the modern flake off clear coat. I like how the engine doesn't have a bunch of useless plastic shrouding. In fact, I like how there is so little plastic anywhere on the car. I like this car.

The pity of it all is the car as designed was intended to be sold to a country with a cool and very dry climate, and operated by drivers in no real hurry to get where they're going. Without an air conditioner this eliminates most of the world and being rust prone, the rest of the rainy/snowy/salt ridden globe is a washout. This leaves the not-in-a-rush crowd as a customer base which translates to a production run of about 2 dozen vehicles.

Still, I'd have bought one, garaged it every night, and kept it out of the sun when parked. This car is in the same league as the early 1960's Ford Falcon, Studebaker Lark, Plymouth Valiant, the Chevy II, the VW bug and other basic cars that could be kept going with half a pair of pliers and a broken screwdriver. I am honored to have lived thru that era. They made a slew of fond memories to take into my eternity.

Mildred Hargis

[FI Spyder]

John is right about plenty of blame to go around. On this side of the Atlantic, British cars had to compete against North Americans ones that were bullet proof, could travel the long distances, most of them straight, many were gravel roads. The cars were bullet proof because they were big and heavy, weight/gas mileage was not a concern as gas was cheap and in much of the rural country side you just pulled up to the huge tractor gas tank and fill it up (at least until they started colouring the tax free farm gas). The British had to recover from a war ravaged country while N/A only had to convert from war to peace time manufacturing. Not enough money was put into R&D as models were rushed into production. Only a few enclaves did you see British cars (like cities such as Victoria) usually because of it's expats. The Germans on the other hand, in worse of shape, realized they must export a reliable car and that every one had to pull in the same direction to pull the country up by it's boot straps. With labour peace and the help of the Marshal Plan, they exported cars like the Volkswagon that promoted the concept of German cars as being quality well made cars.

Its not that the British couldn't design and build a well made car, it's that they didn't. Even fairly recently. A case in point is the Ford owned, first generation XK8/XKR, although millions were poured into them to make them reliable they didn't go that last little mile on a $60,000 to $70,000 car, using plastic chain tensioners that disintegrated, plastic water pumps that disintegrated, plastic thermostat covers that leaked, nickel line cylinders that got eaten away by the sulfur in some gasoline necessitating engine replacements.



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[John Clancy]

I think the fact that British Leyland had just gone bankrupt as TR7 production was about to commence would have had a major impact on how well the car turned out. Logic suggests the company had to get it out in whatever state just to get it on sale.

James Callaghan (then British Prime Minister) did recommend cancelling the TR7 altogether in 1978. I expect the senior management at British Leyland were still hoping to get the derivatives onto the market in the future which could have meant the car would ultimately make money for the company. But as Ray Bates told me (he ended up right-hand man to Michael Edwardes) British Leyland did not make a profit in any year it operated. So I can now see why the replacement of all the Triumph and MG sports cars with one new range of models based on the TR7 platform was so important. The bankruptcy, the long strike at Speke late in '77 and into '78, the inability to cancel all the other sports models, poor management and intransigent unions can all take some of the blame.

FI Spyder - the British sent some of our best engineers over to Germany to help rebuild their industry. I have read several times that the British had a major role in the re-engineering of the VW Beetle. I suppose all this help was intended to prevent another war.

<center><b>[url="http://www.triumphdvd.co.uk"]Triumph TR7 and other car documentaries on DVD here[/url]</b></center>

[TR Tony]

Interesting article here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23406467


Tony

<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
1980 TR7V8 DHC Jaguar Regency Red - sadly sold!
1977 TR8 FHC EFI Factory development car Inca Yellow</font id="size1">

[FI Spyder]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Clancy</i>


FI Spyder - the British sent some of our best engineers over to Germany to help rebuild their industry. I have read several times that the British had a major role in the re-engineering of the VW Beetle. I suppose all this help was intended to prevent another war.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know how much they "re-engineered' it. The British army was sent in to use the site as a military vehicle maintenance site and car production was set at 10% of 1936 production. It was offered to the British, American, Australian and French motor companies but all thought it wasn't worth a damn. In the first year of importation the America the total numbers imported was two. The ones sold in Israel were assembled in the Netherlands as they thought they wouldn't buy anything made in Germany.

Yes they wanted Germany to get back on it's feet as soon as possible to prevent a repeat of what happened after WWI. The same for Japan. A strong democratic nation is more friendly and stable than one under a foreigner's thumb.

- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[john 215]

Hi,

The TR7 was one if not the only sport cars from the UK that passed and exceeded the California emissions test at the time, there were not many production UK cars with injection at the time, Ford or Vauxhall were years behind, when they did go down the injection route it was the old Bosch ' flapper' system meanwhile the Montego and Maestro had fully mapped injection and ignition with MAP sensor control rather than a piece of tin in the air filter !!

The Sprint and V8 should have been put into world wide production, but once again it was down to £££££££££ or lack off. Not helped by $ to £ exchange rate at the time, with the US being the target market.

We not only kick started the German car industry, but also done the same in Japan.

Sorry have and always been a BL fan [^]

Cheers John


LIVE LIFE A QUARTER OF A MILE AT A TIME!

1976 Speke FHC Beauty Now with an overdrive conversion

1979 3.5 FHC(STATUS PENDING!!)

1982 2.0 DHC NOW A 4.6, BUILT NOT BROUGHT !!!!

[TR Tony]

You are right there John, we had the engineering skills & design talent that produced some cars that were ahead of their time but all of that was overwhelmed by political dogma, a poorly skilled workforce coupled with appalling management relations, and as a nation we were certainly guilty of "resting on our laurels" while other nations simply overtook us.

Tony

<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
1980 TR7V8 DHC Jaguar Regency Red - sadly sold!
1977 TR8 FHC EFI Factory development car Inca Yellow</font id="size1">

[FI Spyder]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by john 215</i>

when they did go down the injection route it was the old Bosch ' flapper' system meanwhile the Montego and Maestro had fully mapped injection and ignition with MAP sensor control rather than a piece of tin in the air filter !!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Bosch L jetronic analog electronic system did progress from the flapper system to the more modern "hot wire" system of measuring air flow but the TR7 wasn't around long enough to get it. The disadvantage to the hot wire system is if you used low restriction oiled type air cleaners like K&N, the oil would gradually cover the wire causing erroneous readings and need to be taken apart and cleaned.

Sometimes it's the foibles of a car that makes it endearing rather than the engineering marvels of it.



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[nick]

All great history. Thanks to all for the inputs.

[img][IMG]http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt234/nickmi/TR7%201975/Yellow.jpg[/img]
nick
'79 TR7 DHC
'76 TR7 FHC