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Oil leak from water pump

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Marsu
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Oil leak from water pump

Postby Marsu » 09 Nov 2010 16:34

This morning I noticed that the slot under the water pump has started to leak oil after my journey on the weekend. [:(]
Image

It seems to be losing quite a lot of oil as the level dropped from the top to the bottom mark on the dipstick after less than 70klm.

I haven't ever had to remove or refit the water pump before but have heard other's horror stories. I don't currently have a slide hammer or other suitable tool to remove the pump so would appreciate recommendations. (I'll also search past postings.)

SprintParts (in Sydney) offer a [url="http://www.sprintparts.triumphowners.com/products.cgi?sectionID=480039&articleID=480069#"]recond 12 vane unit[/url] on exchange "from" AU$229, which should be a bit cheaper than shipping one from UK.

Alternatively, I could get the [url="http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RB7062"]Water Pump Repair Kit[/url] but seem to recall hearing that the bottom of the impellor should be machined. Opinions please.

Rimmers site suggests that the [url="http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-145022"]Water Pump Spindle Bush (145022[/url]) should be replaced whenever renewing the pump. Can someone advise how to remove this as there does not seem to be a ROM listing?

I suspect the failure of the water pump oil seal may be due to changes in crank case pressure. When I fitted the DCOEs, based on advice from a club member, I plumbed the crankcase breathing tube from the top rear of the timing cover to the charcoal canister as the carb setup does not provide a port for vacuum pickup as was done with the SUs. My assumption here is that this has caused an increase in crankcase pressue as there is no longer under vacuum. Since doing this I have a small discharge of oil around the Sprint sump dip stick, not major, but suggesting some ring blow by. I'm going to change this setup would appreciate advice on how to rig this better.

windy one
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Postby windy one » 09 Nov 2010 16:37

Just a couple O-rings seal out the water and oil. Maybe you mite be able to get away with replacing the O-rings?

Tho....if it were mine, id just change out the pump and related parts for reassurance [:p]

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Postby Beans » 09 Nov 2010 17:42

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsu</i>

... This morning I noticed that the slot under the water pump has started to leak oil after my journey on the weekend ... how to rig this better ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pressurizing the crankcase might well be the cause for your problem.
Easy to check, connect the breather hose from the cam cover to plastic bottle (with a few holes in the top) fastened somewhere in the engine bay.

See if that helps, if so you can go for a somewhat more elegant solution ...

Image

But it might well be that the water pump’s main oil seal got dislodged by the pressure.
In that case you’ll have to remove the water pump to get it right.


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Stag76
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Postby Stag76 » 09 Nov 2010 20:38

If the water pump needs replacing, you could also consider a Davies Craig electric pump and controller. It warms up the engine quickly, cools it really well, and remains on after you switch off to help eliminate heat soak. You can set the desired engine temp from the controller. I have no engine fan, just a thermo fan switched by the water pump controller.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_ ... tails.aspx



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Postby DNK » 09 Nov 2010 21:15

1 (or 2) pic is worth a thousand words Stag, and I take it the MS doesn't control the fans?

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Postby bmcecosse » 09 Nov 2010 21:32

You MUST lose the crankcase pressure - so find a way to connect to the inlet manifold. On an A series engine I have in the past drilled/tapped a hole - and then fitted a plug with a 1/8" bore hole through the middle - and used that to suck the fumes away. It worked very well - much reduced oil consumption and oil leaks (and fume smell) eliminated.

Image Image ImageImage

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Postby DNK » 09 Nov 2010 21:34

Mine has that smell, do tell. I'm all ears. The nose is plugged.

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Postby Marsu » 10 Nov 2010 04:03

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stag76</i>

If the water pump needs replacing, you could also consider a Davies Craig electric pump and controller.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That looks like a really good approach, but something for the future as would be more work to do than what I want right at the moment.

It makes me curious as to:
- where you mounted the pump and controller?
- does it integrate with the MS controller?
- whether you have considered replacing the oil pump with a dry sump, and thus could remove the jack shaft entirely? That would have to be worth a few extra BHP?

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Postby Marsu » 10 Nov 2010 04:32

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bmcecosse</i>

You MUST lose the crankcase pressure - so find a way to connect to the inlet manifold. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Does it matter if the crank case vacuum port is connected to a single inlet runner or should it be connected to a bar that is connected to, and therefore lets crank case fumes escape to, all cylinders?

There is currently one port that is welded to No 3 inlet and that I have connected to the brake servo.
Image
Image

I had thought about connecting a "T piece" to it to get two hose ports but the end fitting is siezed, perhaps with some welding slag.

If connecting to a single runner is ok I'll work towards this once I get the manifold off again.

All opinions welcome.
[edited to add pics]

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Postby Stag76 » 10 Nov 2010 04:41

I have the controller in the glove-box...the instructions say it cannot be mounted under the bonnet. The pump attaches to the bottom outlet of the radiator, the existing pump is replaced by a brass plug, the thermostat removed and the bypass tube between the manifold and water pump is blocked (I removed it and blocked the manifold and pump cover with welsh plugs). I also blocked the hole in the pump cover for the heater return, and teed the heater hose into the hose joining the header tank and radiator. It doesn't talk to the MegaSquirt. The controller has provision for grounding a relay to turn on the fan if the engine temperature exceeds the target by 3 degrees (very rarely happens). The pump varies its speed to maintain the target temperature. I hadn't considered a dry sump.

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Marsu
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Postby Marsu » 10 Nov 2010 05:00

Did you have to fabricate the brass plug of can it be bought? (I ask as I don't have access to any machines at present.)

Does the heater still operate effectively with your mods? There are occassions in Sydney when one is required, mostly for demisting.

I'd love to see some more pics of your setup.

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Postby UKPhilTR7 » 10 Nov 2010 11:52

I have this problem too, but I am sure that the stuff coming out of my plug is water/coolant. I replaced the pump when the engine was reconditioned and found that mine was really easy to get out, but in saying that the block was out of the car at the time and I had more room to move.

I did not change the washer/brass spindle bush at the time and really wish that I did. I would suggest if you are taking the pump out, to change it at the same time, as not to have regrets like me. I remember looking at it though and thinking it would be a pain to get out.

I remember when I put the pump cap/top on, I put the three gaskets on. This was due to the fact that I was not sure of how many was needed. This I think could have been a problem as it may not be pushing the pump down enough for the seal to work.

If I was you I would take it all out and have a look at what you are dealing with. Take it of the road for a bit, to make sure you can sort if out. That is what I am going to do as I have got sick of looking at the leak now. When I brought the pump I was told that it would take around 500 miles to seal itself. I have done a few more than that and now think that it is my work that is the problem lol.

Image Image

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Postby Marsu » 11 Nov 2010 00:49

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Beans</i>
... if that helps, if so you can go for a somewhat more elegant solution ...
Image
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Beans,

I agree that your approach looks elegant but I don't see how it aids reduction in crank case pressure, so a couple of questions:
1. Does the catch tank provide for connection to the induction system?
2. How frequently do you need to empty catch tank and how much oil do you find it collects during that period?

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Postby Stag76 » 11 Nov 2010 05:44

There are some pictures at this link:-
http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af32 ... =slideshow

I silver soldered a copper elbow onto the plate on the rear of the head to supply the heater, with the discharge teed into the hose that connects the header tank to the radiator. The heater seems to operate as well as before fitting the EWP. I made my brass plug to fit into the cage, but it is available through the Triumph Dolomite Club :- http://www.dollysprint.com/Default.htm

Alternatively, you could silver solder a brass plate on the top and bottom of the existing cage.

You will get enough vacuum from the air-cleaner side of a carby to remove crankcase fumes.

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Beans
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Postby Beans » 11 Nov 2010 17:39

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsu</i>

... 1. Does the catch tank provide for connection to the induction system?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You could connect it back to the carburettors, but as the catch tank is vented there is no need for that. I like my carburettors to deliver a nice clean air/fuel mixture to the engine.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2. How frequently do you need to empty catch tank and how much oil do you find it collects during that period?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have driven the DHC only for a little over 4000 km to date, and there is hardly any oil/ water in so far.

I have the same set up in my Sprint (using an old fire extinguisher) and over the last 13 years and nearly 100.000 km I emptied it circa 5 times. Never got more then a decent cup full of (mainly) water out.

<center>Image
<font color="blue"><i>1980 TR7 DHC (my first car, now restored and back on the road)
1981 TR7 FHC Sprint (better known as 't Kreng)</font id="blue">
<b>[url="http://www.tr7beans.blogspot.com/"]<u><b><font size="2"><font color="red">My Weblog</font id="red"></font id="size2"></b></u>[/url]</b></i></center>

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