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FI Hard Starting/Poor Idle/Won't Run

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FI Spyder
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FI Hard Starting/Poor Idle/Won't Run

Postby FI Spyder » 21 Mar 2011 15:46

I thought I'd start a new post on the problem of hard/not starting, poor idle, not running. I've talked to Zeke and thought I'd post this for those with FI 4 cylinder engines. If you have an air intake leak your car will be hard to start or won't start as the leak prevents the air mass meter flap from opening which prevents the pump from operating. If you crack the flap a little (with screw driver etc.) the pump will work and car may start but will idle poorly as it is running lean. If you press accelerator it will stumble or stall out because of lean mixture. Any air leak after air mass meter does not get registered with the ECU so it can't compensate. The O2 sensor is a fine adjustment which can't compensate for large lean running. Other makes that use Bosch L-jetronic system have the same problems.

If the flap doesn't move the pump won't receive power. This is a saftey feature. If the engine isn't running (ie you're in an accident, you don't want the pump to continue to run.) Cracking the flap allows the pump to run so the car will start. Idle will be poor as the air fuel ratio will be out. O2 sensor can't correct this as it is a fine tuning device trying to correct a bigger problem (only operates at operating temp about 600 degrees). If you let the flap fall back to close, the pump will stop and the engine will quit. If you open the throttle more air is introduced, the system leans out and the engine stalls. Now the thing is to find the leak.

One system is the emissions hoses. These are the hoses going to/coming from cannisters etc.. Some of these hoses have resrictors (plastic pieces narrowing the opening). These hoses must be in correct location and in good shape. If you haven't replaced these hoses I would. You can get bulk hose from auto parts store, it's not expensive. Old hoses can look good but still have micro cracks/leaks. I've included a picture from OEM manual for emissions.

Hose comes from valve cover to flame arrester. Hose from flame arrestor (by valve cover) goes to pipe parrallel to heater pipes. Front of this pipe to top cannister (middle cannister spigot). Rear of pipe to spigot on throttle body.

RH spigot of top cannister to hard pipe to rear (fuel separator by gas tank). At rear, pipe (from front cannnister) to fuel separator, from fuel separator to gas tank. Gas tank cap is sealed to keep this vacuum. If you use a UK cap or locking cap made in UK you are leaking air into intake system.

LH top cannister spigot is blocked off. Bottom of top cannister spigot to top of lower cannister. Bottom spigot of lower cannister to air (goes through positioning bracket).


There is a hose from center large air hose piece to cold air valve then from air valve to air plenum. The air valve is slightly tapered. I had trouble with the hose sliding off as I tightened the clamp so I put some striations perpendicular to it with a file so the hose had something rough to grab onto. I inadvertently left this hose off one end once and engine wouldn't start (leaking air problem).

Make sure the rubber hoses fit snuggly on their metal connectors. and well clamped. Large air hose (two pieces) is rubberized fabric and can leak. I reinforced mine with black duct tape. If you replace this with after market hose make sure it is well clamped to metal connectors.

There is a small hose from the front of the air plenum to the fuel regulator and if not good, can be a source of a leak.

There is a hose from air plenum to brake booster to supply vacuum to brakes. There is a one way valve in this line somewhere, some diagrams show it in the middle but on FI it's either at one end or the other, not sure which.

Incorrect hose placement , leaking hoses, poorly clamped hoses will leak air into vacuum preventing car from running/starting properly. Just because a hose looks good doesn't mean it isn't leaking. If I don't know the history of a hose I replace it.

This setup is unique to FI models. Carb people have their own leaking problems with the result usually of a high idle speed that can't be brought down.


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jbsjim
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Postby jbsjim » 23 Mar 2011 18:43

My air valve doesn't work well causing starting problems and I think that's pretty common. The valve gets gummed up and doesn't rotate anymore. I tried cleaning it with no success. Once she's warmed a bit she's fine though. I'm considering adding/fabricating a manual "choke" to replace this item. New air valves are pricey.

Checking hoses for leaks is challenging. I second the approach of replacement if there is any question on viability. I am considering silcon hoses for the smaller diameter hoses at some point. Should last forever.

Jim

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zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 24 Mar 2011 12:13

FI spyder
I am glad you posted this its a discution on efi tr7 we rarely have them on the forum.
I have an idle problem the car kicks up and starts and as soon as i let go of the switch it dies.

If I hold the airflow meter it will stay running but at very low rev's
the minute I let go or step on the accelerator it sounds like its over fueled and die's.
So I Have checked the hoses and changed them.
New Cold start valve
New Air Flow Meter
New Injectors
New Fuel Regulator
New Fuel Pump
New Filter
New Fuel
New Auxiliar air valve
New Idle-by-pass valve( for a/c units)
New spark plug
New Cables
New electrical unit
New Dizzy
New Throttle valve switch
New Oxygen sensor
New Ground's
New Battery
New alternator ( GM 100amp)
I am planning on changing all the Bosch Connectors like the ones on the injectors .
I have sent the ECU to be refurbished .
I'm i missing anything?

I will not install Carbs so no coments from the peanut gallery.
Gone to far on this route to turn around now.

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HDRider
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Postby HDRider » 24 Mar 2011 13:49

It does sound like a manifold air leak. I would double check all the various hoses and pipes. I had an MG (sorry for swearing) that blew a freeze plug out of the, of course, hidden end of the intake manifold. Very similar symptoms.

Edward Hamer
Petaluma CA

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 24 Mar 2011 15:47

Rather than overfueled I would bet too lean to run, the smell of gasoline fumes not withstanding. If it was running to rich you would think opening the air meter flap would increase the revs rather than it die out even if it sent the signal to ECU to increase the fuel flow. Or not. Not an expert on the mal operation of the L-jetronic as mine has never given a problem. It could always be the obscure like faulty ECU (TR8 Lucas ones go with some regularity but not the TR7 Bosch ones but there's always the first time.) Wish I was closer to Florida so I could physically go over it with you. I've been to Florida and liked it but then my wife says I must have cold blooded lizard running in my veins.[:D]

Your replacement injectors you put in, were they the original spec. or uprated ones. If you go too far up the scale they get less precise at idle and low fuel flow which is where we are at.


You can buy a light that connects to injector wire that flashes when the injectors fire to test that the electricity is reaching them. At last club meeting technical co-ordinator said he had a dwell/tach meter that also measured the length of time the injectors stay open although I don't know were you would get that spec. from off hand.

How much do you want for your almost new FI TR7???? Sorry, bad joke, I couldn't resist.[:o)]

Interesting problem and I'll continue to give it thought. Can't wait to hear back on the prognosis on the ECU.




TR7 Spider - 1978 Spitfire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT
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zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 24 Mar 2011 16:20

Good advice.
I will take the plemum chamber out and take another good look at all the connections and hoses .
The injectors , the same just new.
I will keep you guys informed.
How about 20 I have 17 in it allready. Just kiding .the 20 that is

the 17 is very true.[V]
over my dead body.[:D]

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mb4tim
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Postby mb4tim » 24 Mar 2011 16:34

check every, every, every air hose. I finally replaced the big air hoses-from the air box to the plenum, and it was like night and day. Cost -$30-50 from the UK - bright orange hose. fit perfect and is easy to spot under the hood.

-Tim
http://www.morSpeedPerformance.com
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jbsjim
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Postby jbsjim » 25 Mar 2011 15:57

Zeke,
You did not mention the thermo time switch by the radiator . This one controls the cold start valve and keeps the mixture rich for awhile when starting. You might check this one. The water temperature sensor on top of the thermostat housing (the one with the Bosch plug) is also critical for mixture. Both of these sensors can be tested for resistance values versus temperature (see the Alfa Romeo article that we discussed ages ago). Its a pretty simple check for peace of mind and a lot cheaper than replacing things.

I had an idle problem with mine where the idle speed would go up and down once the car warmed up. Drove me nuts. Checked all of the sensors, connections, hoses - you name it. Turned out to be a faulty ECU. Good thing thing I had a couple spares (now I have 2 faulty spares...).

HDRider,
I too had a leak in my MGB intake manifold (I love my MGB - thank you). A backfire cracked open a small leak in the freeze plug I think. Car ran horribly until I fixed it. Now she runs great. BTW I'm in Elk Grove/Sacramento about 100 miles from you).

Jim

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zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 25 Mar 2011 23:06

Just got news on the ECU .
The tec said that the unit was working Properly.
That the board was intact and all functions are in spec.
I asked him to re-souter the whole thing anyway.
He said that most of the units he receives are in working order and the clients call him back and tell him it was a ground issue.

Soww I am connecting a braded wire from the motor to the chassis and from the motor to the negative on the battery, and from the motor to the battery. Nice circle.

In reference to the radiator switch its also new .
I will check the alfa injection manual anyway for proper Measurement of all the switches and check them.

Today I took the whole thing apart .again .
Changed all the hoses and placed hose clamps all all of them.

I only found one restrictor it was red ,I believe it to be 3/32"

anybody know where I could buy the other one???

It will be working this week .
AHA.


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HDRider
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Postby HDRider » 25 Mar 2011 23:07

My MGB blew the freeze plug right out. It was the rear one I think. You could not see it till I had removed some other parts. It was a good 38 years ago so my memory is a bit spotty on the details. I do remember looking a tthe end of the manifold thinking "shouldn't there be somethinig here."

I managed to get it home at full throttle but that was about it. Drove me nuts for two days till I figered it out.

Edward Hamer
Petaluma CA

FI Spyder
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Postby FI Spyder » 26 Mar 2011 02:29

The red one is the 3/32" restrictor. I don't recall anything about the other one so can't help you there. There are a total of something like seven grounds in the later TR7's and any bad one can give electrical problems usually in light/instrument areas but who knows may affect the FI system as well.

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iedkwok
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Postby iedkwok » 26 Mar 2011 16:24

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zekow1</i>

Good advice.
I will take the plemum chamber out and take another good look at all the connections and hoses .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The manual I have is not for FI, but my car is FI. A little lost when looking for thing, but thanks to FI Spyder, I find my way. When you guys talk about checking/replacing hoses and removing the Plemun Chamber, how do you remove the Plemun Chamber? I saw few bolts to remove but what about those springs in the back-end (by the firewall), that hold your throttle setting?

zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 26 Mar 2011 23:23

iedkwok
First welcome to our forum.
Is your car running?
If it is ?
Is it running well?

If not then tell us what is happening and we will help you throught it.
Now ,If your intentions are to rebuild ??
Then, The Plenum chamber is held on by two brakets on the bottom of the plenum chamber.
One is connected to the block
The other is connected to the motor mount .

The four big hoses that are connect from the chamber to the manifold are also supporting it.Loosen the four clamps on the chambers side.

On the side by the fire wall there are three bolts ,take them out and take the whole throttle cable assembly out and put it on the side.

disconnect the throttle switch on the side of the throttle body
Disconect the switch these are two small cables.
Disconnect the cold start valve it will be on the bottom middle of the chamber.

and now for the pieze of recistancceeee.
loosen the clamp on the lower part of the throddle body

Now care fully , CARE FULLY pull up and towards you .

it sound much easier than it is
the chamber is usually stuck to the four hoses on the manifold.

[:D]



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zekow1
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Postby zekow1 » 26 Mar 2011 23:53

<font size="6"></font id="size6"><center><font face="Arial"><font color="red"><font size="5">I found out something .</font id="size5"></font id="red"></font id="Arial"></center>

I cut the injector connection , the thermo switch and the temp sensor cables to change the plugs.

<font face="Stencil"><font color="red"><font size="6"><center>The injector wires colors are all of a different color stripes and combinations. </center> </font id="size6"> </font id="red"> </font id="Stencil">
Why I'm I so impressed ???
Well I thought all the injectors fired at the same time.
If that is true ??
Then why would they be of different colors stripes and combinations.

Is it possible ??
that this is the reason why the car won't run properly ??
That the connectors to the injectors are in a particular Sequence ??

<center><font color="blue"><font size="6"><font face="Times New Roman">????QUESTION???? </font id="Times New Roman"> </font id="size6"> </font id="blue"> </center>

Who knows ?? which combination goes in which injector???

Which are the positives and which the negatives??

Or the reason why they are of diffent colors an combinations are because the british leyland builders ran out of same color wires and decided to use what they had???? Naaaaa.


OHHH!!! and the color codes !!!
are not in the Lucas lists ,all the lists.[;)]



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Stag76
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Postby Stag76 » 27 Mar 2011 02:48

Inj 1 Gray/Green - Yellow/Green.
Inj 2 Gray/Red - Yellow/Green
Inj 3 Gray/Blue - Yellow/Blue
Inj 4 Gray/Brown - Yellow/Blue

The Yellow/Color wires should be +12v, and the Gray/Colour wires are earthed by the ECU to open the injectors. It doesn't matter which pin on the injector is connected to the +12v, but the correct Gray/Colour must be connected to the correct injector.

There is a diagram here
http://www.team.net/TR8/tr8cca/wedgelab ... R7_ECU.pdf

Edit:
Looking at those schematics it seems that there is only one injector driver channel, so it won't matter which injector the Gray/Colour wires are connected to, as they will all fire at the same time.

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