Spark Plug Reading

RadioGuy · Postby **RadioGuy** » 13 Jul 2010 22:25

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

Maintained on Saturdayâ€¦Drive on Fun-Day !!! 1976 FHC - 1980 DHC

PeterTR7V8 · Postby **PeterTR7V8** » 13 Jul 2010 22:36

I will say that my experience with a gas/air analyser was well worth the money I spent on it. To tune a car for optimum efficiency & power you need to understand what is going on over the full range of throttle especially with big 4 barrell carbs where there are 2 sets of throttles working. Can looking at the plugs tell me if the secondary jets are too big when they are only used 10% of the time?

The map: http://tinyurl.com/wedgemap . The blog: http://www.forum.triumphtr7.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8548

FI Spyder · Postby **FI Spyder** » 14 Jul 2010 05:01

The best money to be spent is to buy a Bosch FI setup from some car that has been parted on eBay or someone that thinks carbs are a better way to go. No fiddling, instant starting, tan plugs always, no idle worries, no manual or automatic choke, no carbon in exhaust pipe, cooler running engine.[:D]

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra

Marko · Postby **Marko** » 14 Jul 2010 11:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FI Spyder

The best money to be spent is to buy a Bosch FI setup from some car that has been parted on eBay or someone that thinks carbs are a better way to go. No fiddling, instant starting, tan plugs always, no idle worries, no manual or automatic choke, no carbon in exhaust pipe, cooler running engine.[:D]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Amen.... [8D]

Hasbeen · Postby **Hasbeen** » 14 Jul 2010 15:01

I wish some of you injection loving people were a little nearer than
you are. Then perhaps you could come & get the 8 running even half
as nicely as my SU fed 7. Fortunately I can tune that one, myself.

I am prepared to admit that the problem is probably with the people
I have had working on the thing, but how do I find someone, who
knows what they are doing, when I don't know myself, & I can find
no one with proven experience on this type of set up, within a
thousand miles of here.

Sure it's got plenty of poke, but the cold starting is lousy, & some
of the running is not too hot.

If only I could find an old laptop that would talk to the Haltech
computer, but it seems it won't talk to anything more modern than
windows 95, although it is supposed to.

SUs for ever.

Hasbeen

FI Spyder · Postby **FI Spyder** » 14 Jul 2010 16:59

Haltech computer? Is your's a stock system? I was under the impression an analog system couldn't be programed as the program was hard wired. Don't know where I assumed that from.

The ECU in the eight is Lucas not Bosch. Usually the problem with it is it doesn't work at all. Before I found this site I was reading a US TR8 site. The US TR8 guys had a high school kid that would fix them for $300 or some such. But when he went to college he told them he wouldn't have time to work on them. Some one was talking to Land Rover engineer who said by cutting one land on the circuit board a Land Rover one should work and new Land Rover ECU's were a fraction of the price of old remanufactured TR8 ones. They where trying to get a number of readers to contribute a small sum to buy one and test out the theory. Don't know if they did.

Hard starting when cold (other than air leaks) is usually the cold air valve or cold injector.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra

Hasbeen · Postby **Hasbeen** » 15 Jul 2010 01:18

Spyder, the Haltech computer is an after market unit which was used
in our V8 Super Cars [racing tin tops], back when this car was
built.

The main problem is with cold starting, & still some pinking, at
high revs full throttle. Every stage of injection is individually
tunable. I expect to be able to get the pinking fixed on a dyno.

The cold start problem is just that. The thing starts quite quickly,
but will stall after just a couple of revolutions, unless brought
immediately up to around 2000 RPM. If started without any throttle,
it will stall the first 5 or 6 times. This appears to warm it up
enough so it will then start, & run very badly for a minute or two.

As it warms up it becomes OK, running about 800, but hunting between
700 & 900 RPM. It's an auto, & putting it in gear, the slight load
steadies it, & the idle is good.

It only takes a couple of minutes to get to this point.

I have had the only "on site" bloke, with a lap top that can talk to
the thing try to tune it. He only gets that first minute or so, as
it soon warms up enough to get to the OK stage.

Unfortunately, having him come 40 KM, early on a cold morning, a
number of times, is getting expensive. He knows more than me, but I
don't think it is all that much, at least about this combination of
things, so we don't appear to be going anywhere.

I can't find any one else in Brisbane who knows these things.

Even if I could find someone better, the engine would not be cold
when I got there. Once started, it is OK even after quite a few
hours. Engines don't get really cold during the day here.

I have watched him tune the cold idle injection from quite rich, to
quite lean, & just the number of stalls, before it runs is changed,
& only a little.

It's about 2200Km, or 2600Km to the only people I know have the
expertise I require on RV8s.

I have been unable to find an old laptop running Windows 95, to buy,
which appears to be the only thing the Haltech will talk to, so I
can try to develop the expertise myself.

It really isn't a major problem but I could use some H E L P.

Hasbeen

FI Spyder · Postby **FI Spyder** » 15 Jul 2010 05:03

There should be an additional sensor involved in cold running. On the Bosch there is a thermotime sensor that senses the cold water temp and tells the ECU to run the cold injector for 10 or so seconds the time depends on the temp of the water. Do you have a similar sensor and is it working? The Bosch can be tested out of car with ohmeter and glasses of water at various temperatures.

All you need is an old laptop and a copy of Windows 95 to load on it. Someone who is into computers should have a couple lying around that he hasn't thown out yet.

Probably pick one up on ebay for next to nothing.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spifire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra

Hasbeen · Postby **Hasbeen** » 15 Jul 2010 06:43

Spyder, there are no extra injectors, just one per cylinder.

We can enrichen or lean them all. Going richer does seem to reduce
the stalling, on really cold mornings, but does nothing to improve
the running, as it warms up.

Hasbeen

Marko · Postby **Marko** » 15 Jul 2010 12:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hasbeen
Spyder, the Haltech computer is an after market unit which was used
in our V8 Super Cars [racing tin tops], back when this car was
built.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ok , what model of the haltech do you have , here is the site http://www.haltech.com/

and does it control only fuel and ignition is controlled by the distributor

or fuel and ignition?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hasbeen
The main problem is with cold starting, & still some pinking, at
high revs full throttle. Every stage of injection is individually
tunable. I expect to be able to get the pinking fixed on a dyno.

The cold start problem is just that. The thing starts quite quickly,
but will stall after just a couple of revolutions, unless brought
immediately up to around 2000 RPM. If started without any throttle,
it will stall the first 5 or 6 times. This appears to warm it up
enough so it will then start, & run very badly for a minute or two.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

how coarse is the fuel map? how many rpm's does 1 cell represent, for example 500, 1000, 1500 , etc....

to coarse can lead to too big of a jump between engine states for the ecu , especialy in transitient or unstable states as warmup or acceleration. Sometimes " tuners " are to lazy to use whole maps because its a lot of work to adjust all of the cells, you want as finest and most detailed maps the ECU can provide.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hasbeen
As it warms up it becomes OK, running about 800, but hunting between
700 & 900 RPM. It's an auto, & putting it in gear, the slight load
steadies it, & the idle is good.

It only takes a couple of minutes to get to this point.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

the fuel map a 3d matrix where one axis is rpm , other axis is TPS/MAP in other words engine load, and the cell value or third axis is amount of fuel.

I would suggest that you select ideal idle rpm. For example 800 rpm, set the first fuel cell on engine load 0 (idle) and something lower that 800 rmp, lets say 500 rmp and adjust the fuel and ignition to push the engine up from 500 rpm's to desired , that way the engine wont be able to stall on its own. Ignition should usually be retarded in this "lower than idle" state.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hasbeen
I have had the only "on site" bloke, with a lap top that can talk to
the thing try to tune it. He only gets that first minute or so, as
it soon warms up enough to get to the OK stage.

Unfortunately, having him come 40 KM, early on a cold morning, a
number of times, is getting expensive. He knows more than me, but I
don't think it is all that much, at least about this combination of
things, so we don't appear to be going anywhere.

I can't find any one else in Brisbane who knows these things.

Even if I could find someone better, the engine would not be cold
when I got there. Once started, it is OK even after quite a few
hours. Engines don't get really cold during the day here.

I have watched him tune the cold idle injection from quite rich, to
quite lean, & just the number of stalls, before it runs is changed,
& only a little.

It's about 2200Km, or 2600Km to the only people I know have the
expertise I require on RV8s.

I have been unable to find an old laptop running Windows 95, to buy,
which appears to be the only thing the Haltech will talk to, so I
can try to develop the expertise myself.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

most of those old SA ECU's have serial cable to connect to pc.

99% of the connection issues arise from serial to usb converters that we use on "modern" laptops, last 10 years laptops are all USB, get a good converter.

Then find a neighbors kid that knows something about computers. And get him to setup the COM ports for you. The COM port on the serial to usb converter should be the same as selected in the haltech software. I'll try to help you further when you tell me exact model of the haltech ECU.

If i can get the software to run on my win xp i can send you screen shots of how to setup the connection.

Hasbeen · Postby **Hasbeen** » 15 Jul 2010 14:32

Thanks Marko, I think I understood about half of that.

My other computer has most of the information, & it's down with a virus at present.

I think from memory it's an F9. It's an injection only unit. We have just fitted a new Malory distributor, & ignition system, along with a new manifold, & pelham.

My son will be home for a while next week, & will probably be able to use your help better than I. Will ask for advice then.

Thank you,

Hasbeen

Marko · Postby **Marko** » 15 Jul 2010 16:14

ok here we go...

http://www2.haltech.com.au/index.php?op ... &Itemid=55

this page has all of the download data for F9 , get the last version 5.17 of the software. Reading trough the manual i saw works like Dos, and floppy drive [:D] , sure brings back memories . ... [8D] [:I]

if the laptop doesn't have serial cable connector you will need a serial to usb converter.

like this one

when you plug it in and install the drivers you need to setup the COM ports, Haltech needs to be connected to COM port 1 .

First we go to Control panel , then system

then hardware

then device manager

then we go to ports and press the [+] next to the word to expand the menu

this is our Serial to usb settings , right click on it

go to properties

then port settings

Marko · Postby **Marko** » 15 Jul 2010 16:33

then advanced

and switch the COM port to number 1

close all opened windows by pressing OK

before we would get this message that the software cant access the COM port 1 and the software wouldn't load

After the above modification the program runs

since the ECU is not connected to my computer il just press N and go to offline mode

then just for fun poke around the menus alt+s

that cold start issue should be solved by alt+m , coolant map

and post start map alt+m , post start map

just poke around the software a bit to see what's available

the bloody thing can even datalog . I'm impressed with this "oldschool" electronics [:D]

for you the program will be running full screen,

i was using Dosbox just so i can make screen shots

Hasbeen · Postby **Hasbeen** » 16 Jul 2010 01:48

Thanks Marko, My son will probably be able to use all that. Just a few questions, does this mean we can use a modern lap top, with a
late windows? Do I still have to find an old lap top?

The bloke doing it had those maps, but he could only get into it on
that old lap top, starting up with dos on a floppy.

You only get a minute to try things, before it warms up too much. We
need to be able to do it at home.

This computer stuff is the only thing that makes me wish, some
times, that I was 30 years younger. I'm afraid it is true, that you
do get a bit old too learn many new tricks. You think you've learnt
it, but 6 months later, when you want it, you don't quite have it.

Glad you enjoyed playing with it.

Although the new Mallory distributor was set up by the most
successful people in Oz with Rover RV8 engines, it may be part of
the problem. We've set the timing for performance, & it may not be
quite right down there.

This may take some time.

Hasbeen

Marko · Postby **Marko** » 16 Jul 2010 05:37

yes , you can probably use new laptop with windows xp

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