FI Hard Starting/Poor Idle/Won't Run

[zekow1]

Stag 76
Bravo.
I have been so busy been frustated that I stopped thinking.
I just didn't even look There.

As soon as the ecu comes back from the tec I will get back to you guys with the update.

It's Alive

[iedkwok]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zekow1</i>

iedkwok
First welcome to our forum.
Is your car running?
If it is ?
Is it running well?

If not then tell us what is happening and we will help you throught it.
Now ,If your intentions are to rebuild ??
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Zeknow1,

I live in Southern California, and pick up this TR7 that has been park out since 2000, it has 64K mile on it, and words are it ran, the car was drove and parked since 2000. Body is not bad for parking outside all these years, naturally thing are rusted, and couple rats has made it a home (one in the air filter and another in frame back left).
My goal is to restore it, but right now need to get it running to get smog to clear California DMV. The current status are:

-Engine passed the turn over test.
-couldn't put gas in tank to try starting it. the fuel filler trap flip door only open a little, and don't open enough to put more gas in. I am sure the inside of the tank should looks pretty bad, but now just want to get it start and maybe long enough to get it smog.

What I have done:
-did the engine turn over test and passed.
-try to remove the fuel filler neck, but couldn't get it out.(after reading postings, will need to drop the tank, but not looking forward to).
-has removed the fuel lead from the fuel rail and connecting it to an external fuel tank/pump setup. Need to disconnect the fuel pump under the car so the pump wouldn't engage when I crank it over. Have not try start the car, still working on the external fuel tank setup. Hoping all return fuel will still be going to the fuel tank, and it is still a close system.

All rubber under the car looks pretty bad and will need to be replace, but that can come later after I get the car smog.

Pretty sure, I will need to goes through what you have done in replacing the hoses, so will be referring back to your posting to figure what I will need to replace, thanks for the listing.

[jbsjim]

Zeke,
The only restrictor I have (I believe) is in the hose that snakes down from the head (via that aluminum pipe assembley - the other end goes to the throttle body) to the canister. That's not the same setup as the folks with carbs.

Based on your experience maybe I need to work on my grounds some more. I am unsuccessfully chasing a turn signal malfunction. With warmer weather finally on tap I'm hoping to get back to this task soon.

iedkwok,
You can easily shut off the electric fuel pump if you depress or pull the roll over switch on the driver's side fender by the coil. It's either in or out, can't remember which and I'm not near the car. It is designed to shutoff the fuel supply if the car rolls over.

Jim

[IMG]

[zekow1]

Ok
Just got home after a whole day working on the car.
The engine bay is finally all back together.
The care started at the first turn
BUTTTTTTTTTT it idle rough anddddddd
there is no responce from the throttle.
That is that you press the pedal , pull the cable or manually turn the throttle and nothing no response.
What is That????
computer good
New hoses and every hose conection has a clamp
cables to the injectors new
cables to the temp switch new
cable to the cold star injector new
new grounds''' two new grounds
what I'm i missing???
I have to be missing something
Can any of you guys see anything missing??

It's Alive

[Stag76]

Opening the throttle plate allows increased air through the air-flow meter, and this, in conjunction with the Throttle Position Sensor, tells the ECU to increase the injector pulse width etc, so maybe the Air-Flow meter or TPS is not operating properly. It's the same Bosch L-Jetronic system that was used on Fiats (and lots of other European cars), so this Fiat link may help.
http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/fiatFI_may2002.pdf

TR7 Convertible
Sprint Motor
MegaSquirt EFI

[FI Spyder]

Okay, on the FI TR7's, they used the electronic Delco distributors of which there are three sets of specs depending on if it's California 1980, Federal 1981 or California 1981 emissions it's trying to meet. It isn't a vacuum advance (as it's commonly called) but a vacuum retard and is used to set emissions on low/no throttle i.e. coasting. The initial timing setting and the shape of mechanical advance weights (and their springs) give the total advance at a given rpm. On throttle reduction (high vacuum) the diaphragm dials it back (retards). If you don't have to meet emissions (like here) you can block off the spigot at the throttle with a rubber cap (like I did). If you have it connected and the diaphragm is leaking that could be the source of your after air mass meter leak. An after air mass meter leak will not allow the air vane to stay open at idle so when the ignition is released and the vane is closed the fuel pump will shut off causing the engine to stop running. Something you could check as well Zeke as I think we didn't cover that before. As mine is blocked off I kind of forget about it. Having the vacuum retard blocked off doesn't adversely affect the driveability of the car as it's strictly an emissions thing. There is no connection between it and the ECU.

Now if you must have it to pass Air Care I've heard of people using diaphragms picked off cars in the auto wreckers. Don't know which ones off hand but they're kind of generic, just take the old one down and hunt till you find one that will fit (find an auto wrecker that will let you do that.) As it's a Delco probably a good place to start is GM products but I've heard of Japanese ones fitting Spitfires (Lucas) etc. I don't know about the probability of getting a new one from your not busy local auto parts guy as you try to match it up visually.

There was a guy selling off a NOS stash of Delco distributors a year or two ago on eBay. I picked a new one up cheap as a spare part and it included a spare external amplifier (stock ones have it built in to the coil) so it would fit a non-FI TR7. Haven't been checking lately so don't know if they still come up.

I would block off the spigot on the throttle first with a rubber cap (you can just get your hand around in there, it's facing the distributor). If it starts and runs then you've found/solved the problem without further ado.


TR7 Spider - 1978 Spitfire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[FI Spyder]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stag76</i>

Opening the throttle plate allows increased air through the air-flow meter, and this, in conjunction with the Throttle Position Sensor, tells the ECU to increase the injector pulse width etc, so maybe the Air-Flow meter or TPS is not operating properly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I find that mine starts easier when cold by cracking the throttle a bit. Don't need to do it when warm. It may be that the air mass meter, cold start injector or cold air valve may not be optimal but it always starts and runs fine so don't care. Good point to crack the throttle when starting though to help it out a bit.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spitfire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[zekow1]

I have not tried that.
I had lots of trouble with my delco unit system and changed it for a re-furbished Lucas with a new vacuum unit.
and the electronics are XR-700 Crane.with a flamethrower coil.

I will go back and tap the throttle tip and the vacumm on the Dizzy.

Can that be it??? that little thing can cause the Throttle not to responde. Wow how delicate.

I will keep you guys informed .

It's Alive

[FI Spyder]

If your vacuum unit on your distributor is new it should be good. To test you can suck on the hose and see if it moves the advance plate, block it a see if it holds position. If you have a vacuum hand pump/gauge you can use that. If it's good and your distributor to throttle spigot hose is new there should be no vacuum leak there so shouldn't cause a problem.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spitfire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[iedkwok]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FI Spyder</i>

Okay, on the FI TR7's, they used the electronic Delco distributors
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

FI Spyder,

do you happen to know if this distributors can still be purchase? As I try to remove the Vacuum Retard from the distributors housing, one of the screw (the right most screw, the one with the ground wire attached) securing the Vacuum Retard was rusted on to the distributors housing, so I have to brake off the screw head to replace the Vacuum Retard and now I have a stub. If I can't get this stud/stub out, I am planning to just mount the Vacuum Retard with just one screw, and using the broken stub to fit the unit on.

[zekow1]

The delco units are very hard to find and few people know how to re-build them.
[url="mailto:"]www.advanceddistributors.com/[/url] are very good at what they do but it takes about 3 weeks to get it back. his prices are reasonable and it will come back like new.
My suggestion is call him early in the morning and talk.
Then send him everything the coil/dizzy/cables he will test them all for you and then refubish the rest .[:)]

It's Alive ALL MOST

[jbsjim]

Hey Zeke,
I had a similar problem with mine once. It turned out that one of the injector wires had come unclipped at the manifold. You couldn't see it but it wasn't quite clipped on. I found it by pulling each injector wire off one at a time while the car was roughly running. When I found the culprit it was not clipped on. Once found the idle and throttle response were instantly there.

I had my dizzy rebuilt by Advanced. He's very good and a good guy too. I don't think he has the wherewithall to rebuild the vacuum units though. He told me to set the timing at 12-14 degrees advanced at idle with this dizzy where the vacuum unit was not operable. If yours doesn't retard properly at idle you might try this. I found timing on this engine tremendously critical. A few degrees make a huge impact on how well the car runs. Incidentally I found a NOS dizzy on ebay a couple years ago that had a working vacuum unit and that is what I am now using. To pass California smog the car must be 2 degrees retarded at idle when tested.

I know of no sources other than ebay for these dizzys although there was a rumor that a guy down in Stockton (south of me) was rebuilding the Delco and Lucas vacuum units.

Jim

Just a heads up, the ECU on the 1980 models is not the same as the ones for 1981 cars. So make sure yours is the correct unit.

[IMG]

[FI Spyder]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jbsjim</i>


Just a heads up, the ECU on the 1980 models is not the same as the ones for 1981 cars. So make sure yours is the correct unit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My 1980 OEM manual states the throttle switch is either a variable resistance switch (potentiometer) or a on/off switch that notes full throttle only, with injector duration determined by the engine speed (feed from the negative coil/disributor) except of course at full throttle when the on/off switch would come into play. This would indicate a different ECU. Is this the different ECU you speak of? That would tend to indicate the ECU changed sometime during the 1980 model year.

TR7 Spider - 1978 Spitfire - 1976 Spitfire - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

[zekow1]

Ok. my ECU is a bosch 0 280 000 199
If the 80 & 81 are different? then the numbers should also be ?
What number do you have??

It's Alive ALL MOST

[jbsjim]

I'm referring to the black box in the passenger foot well. There are two different Unipart numbers (RKC3764 and RKC4818) listed in the Parts Catalog. The 81 model years have slightly different systems than the 80s and that may be why. The most obvious change to me is the addition of a solenoid valve in parallel with the auxilary air valve in the later models. (Zeke - I found in the catalog that there is a restrictor in the hose leading from the solenoid valve that I didn't see before since I don't have this part).

I will look later today for some numbers on my spare ECUs (that don't work well).
Jim