tr7triumph.com

Just reading in todays Classic Car Buyer that 10% ethanol may be coming to the UK as soon as early 2013. It may also be hard to spot when it does as it depends on retailers putting stickers on their pumps saying it "may not be suitable for all vehicles".
The magazine have done a few articles previously about the effects on older cars so I wondered if anyone on here has any experience or thoughts on how it affects our cars. Do we need to look out for problems on fuel lines, gaskets, tank seals etc.

Our friends in the US must have gone before us on this one so what problems has it caused guys?

Russ

1980 TR7 Sprint DHC
Dursley
UK

For me, nothing. Seems fine in my Wedge and both my motorcycles, and my work trucks. Tho, I do not let the vehicles sit with empty tanks, I try to keep them as close to full when parked for an extended time!
Also, (and I dont know if you all over there can find this, but...) I always use Sta-Bil Marine formula Ethanol Treatment. Ethanol absorbs moisture, the Sta-Bil prevents that from acumillating/happening over time. Untill I find a better working additive, I will be using the Sta-Bil Eth-treatment. [:D]

Johnny

We have had 10% mix for years now. The only problems I have had are with older rubber components. My advise would be to replace all the rubber fuel lines including the vapor canister lines back at the tank.

There is about 10% less energy in the mixed blend (19,000 btu's ibstead of 21,000 btu's per us gallon) so your milage will go down as well.

Edward Hamer
Petaluma CA

Ditto Johnny, second that. <u>Always</u> keep the tank filled so no air can send condensation into the fuel when parked
for some time. Filled to the brim is the secret.

(And IF you have an old pool of water sloshing around under the fuel in there - it will be absorbed by the new
fuel and sent out via the exhaust pipe...)

10% ethanol isn't much of a problem for a properly tuned engine (tuned for this fuel that is), and if it's an
efi with lambda feed-back control it will actually benefit slightly from the oxygenation the alcohol brings.

Personally I usually fill roughly 20% ethanol in my fuel mix when it's time for the bi-annual government exhaust
value check - never a trace of problems there. I did that test last Monday and had:
CO at idle: 0.00 % (allowed is 0.50% by volume)
CO at 2500 rpm: 0.03% (allowed is 0.30% by volume)
HC at idle: 15 ppm (allowed is 100ppm by volume)
Lambda value at 2500 rpm: 1.03 (allowed is 0.97 to 1.03)

Personally I wouldn't worry about it in ordinary use, going extended WOT and/or racing might be different though...

Good suggestions from others. Another thing to watch out for is that if your fuel system is already dirty, the ethanol may clean some of that out. Which may mean you suddenly need to change you fuel filters much more frequently.

If you store your car for any length of time (over winter, for example), you might look into a fuel stabilizer, or completely drain the system. The big problem is that the ethanol will absorb any water (that isn't so bad), but then when it gets saturated it will separate from the gasoline, which leaves a water-ethanol blend on the bottom of your tank.

Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

I understand that part of the change to 10% ethanol fuel here in the UK is that what we know as Super Unleaded (the stuff with 97 or more octane rating) will remain at 5% ethanol, only the "normal" unleaded (95 octane) will contain 10%.

So, we can just pay more for our fuel & avoid the pitfalls of 10% ethanol [:D] Out of interest how many of us use Super Unleaded normally already?

Tony

<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
1980 TR7V8 DHC Jaguar Regency Red - sadly sold!
1977 TR8 FHC EFI Factory development car Inca Yellow</font id="size1">

During the last CT 10CR a lot of cars were having vapour lock problems with the European 95 octane fuel which I believe often has a increased quantity of ethanol. I run my 7 on the 97/98 octane and despite some very hard driving (20 alpine passes in 1.5 days!) it never missed a beat. Moral is use the more expensive petrol or genuine leaded (if you can get it)

We have discussed this before and it wasn't so long ago. Other than the reduction in BTU value with corresponding reduction in gas mileage, the 10% ethanol in U.S. blend fuels with our 8.0:1 ratio engines as been a non event. Please note the word 'blend'. We have many 'blends' of go-juice here the U.S. of A. to suit the various localities and their peculiar air quality preferences. This artificially drives up the cost of fuel as no one wants what the other guys want. What you good folks on your side of the Atlantic wind up with is anyone's guess.

One bunch in the E.P.A. in Washington D.C. is making noises about increasing the ethanol from 10% to 15%. This may actually be bad for our older engines. Not only will the BTU level fall some more along with gas mileage, chemical reaction with the various rubber and metal components may occur. I do not really know if this is accurate. Suffice it to say, a lot of fear mongers are screeching on their hind heels over this.

You kind souls with the 9.25:1 ratio pistons will want to be aware of your engines reaction with regard to combustion chamber detonation, or pinging. Should this occur, please retard your timing slightly.

Mildred Hargis

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TR Tony</i>

I understand that part of the change to 10% ethanol fuel here in the UK is that what we know as Super Unleaded (the stuff with 97 or more octane rating) will remain at 5% ethanol, only the "normal" unleaded (95 octane) will contain 10%.

So, we can just pay more for our fuel & avoid the pitfalls of 10% ethanol [:D] Out of interest how many of us use Super Unleaded normally already?

Tony

<font size="1">1981 TR7 FHC Cavalry Blue
1980 TR7V8 DHC Jaguar Regency Red - sadly sold!
1977 TR8 FHC EFI Factory development car Inca Yellow</font id="size1">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I always use the super unleaded in all my cars and never use supermarkets.

1975 TR7
1977 TR7 Sprint

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TR Tony</i>

Out of interest how many of us use Super Unleaded normally already?
Tony
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Depends on my driving that particular day. Hyway and crusing speeds I used mid-grade (usually 89 octane around here). 91-93octane if I am gonna be running her hard (which isnt all that often). Mainly because my timing is advanced some in my 7.

Johnny

Here in my end of the globe, I use a Shell brand #1 gasoline. It contains 0% ethanol and has the highest octane I can get. Yes, I pay the steep (for around here) price of 1.40/litre. Lower grades will contain 15% ethanol or more.

There was a club notice sent around as to which gas stations in Nanaimo use ethanol and which don't. They aren't marked (like I noticed they were in US last trip to Portland). I fill up at Great Canadian Superstore with 87 octane (N/A) for the Spider which gives 5 cents a litre coupon for in store purchases. Never had any problems. Always used 87 in my Tercel (9 to 1 with carb) and 89 in Integra (9 to 1 with FI) although in last year with high gas prices I switched it back to 87 with no problems.



- - -TR7 Spider - - - 1978 Spitfire- - - - 1976 Spitfire - - 1988 Tercel 4X4 - Kali on Integra - 1991 Integra - Yellow TCT

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Century Gothic, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> You kind souls with the 9.25:1 ratio pistons will want to be aware of your engines reaction with regard to combustion
chamber detonation, or pinging. Should this occur, please retard your timing slightly. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Actually the alcohol blended fuel have a higher resistance to combustion chamber detonation (since
the alcohol in itself have something like 104 RON) - if they haven't used inferior octane petrol that using
the alcohol boost end up at the normal/stated octane rating...

Which is probably what SOME fuel retailers will be doing to increase their revenue. [:(]

Yes, Odd, you're correct. To clarify, the various U.S. blends of fuel, even within the same area, can vary in quality. My nephew, Abner, has a 4700 pound Ford Expedition that will not tolerate Walmart gasoline while it will happily digest fuels from the Exxon, Texaco, and Shell stations. It's all in the blend, including the ethanol factor.

Mildred Hargis

Some years ago SASOL introduced a small % of Ethanol to their petrol & you may not be aware that all South African petrol irrespective of Brand contains Sasol. ( petrol from coal).
This caused white sugary deposits to build up on certain carburretors using a form of Pewter. Problem cars were BMW & my Rover SD1. The crystals blocked entry to the carb & jets. I could drive a good 500KM with no problems until I stopped & then blockage. I devised a set of tools & could eventually clear the problem in less than 10mins. At last Sasol awoke & issued free of charge two liquids one a cleanser & the other a "bonuriser". Problem solved, but goodbye to shiny SU's.